Speakers and the right Amplification - Blu-ray Forum

prerich · 10-03-2008, 03:13 PM

Speakers and the room are the only things that you actually hear. That being said, I also believe that certain amps can give your speakers a different sound. I'm not a fan of the current Klipsch stuff (I haven't heard the Icon series yet - they do look pretty though) - but I am a fan of the older stuff. The knock against horns is generally a honkiness sound from them. I have head this myself (with Tanget 50's). I had a pair of Heresy's and sold them because of the way they sounded with a Pioneer receiver I had - honky horns. I got a good deal of money out of the sale. I bought them because I had heard them before, but the system was different - it was on seperates with an old SAE amp. The sound was great!!! nothing like what I had experienced with the ones I had bought (I was expecting the same results to my dismay).

I decided to give the old Klipsch one more try (knowing if I didn't like'em - I could flip'em). I bought 2 pair for $300.00 total. Wired them up, turned my M-80 on and whala!!!! The magic was there!!!! Soundstage reached far above and beyond the speakers. My son and I put on some of our favorite gospel and jazz music and it was like we were there!!! (Gospel concerts have a lot of feeling and depth because people talk in the audiance - its very moving). I ran my M-80 in Class A mode.

The point is that the speakers sound changed with the amplification. The honk was gone!!! The sound was smooth and alive - with plenty of detail! I would put them on even par with my Snells except my Snells are much taller. So I have replaced my Snells (so they can be turned into highly efficient Audio Note AN-E's) and placed the Heresy's in my HT (Heresy LCR). Watched Iron Man last night and it was just powerful!!!! It was crazy, the first explosion was house rattling (not to mention the rest of them), powerful and very dynamic! I don't think the Pioneer would have done this.

What do you guys think - do some speakers rely on a certain type of amp to sound good? The Heresy's need good amplification (not because they suck power - but horns can stink with the wrong power). I believe that amps can have a sonic signature - what do you think - Chime in everybody

Johnny Vinyl · 10-03-2008, 03:41 PM

I agree Prerich! Every componant has it's own signature and we would do well to audition various alternatives prior to making a purchase, although that is not always possible.

We know that audiophile junkies are constantly changing their gear for that optimum sound. But in some respects, I think it's even more important for lesser priced systems. IMHO, componants are bought all too often based on price, aesthetics and if it's in stock or not.

I'm about to (once again) get into the highend 2-Channel Analog world and I will definately research, find opinion and do extensive auditioning before making a decision on the componants to buy. We all want our systems to look good, but I'd rather they sound good!

Good post! I love this kind of dialogue!

sokrman14 · 10-03-2008, 03:50 PM

I definitely agree with you as well. A lot of people think that all amps, receivers, etc sound alike. They think all solid states are built of equal quality, and they just arent. Every company that uses their own materials will have a different sound from one another, and some speakers just work better with certain amps. You will often find companies that make both speakers and amps, they test them together and often perform best together for that reason. But for companies that only specialize in one or the other, I definitely think that someone who is changing out an amp or speakers needs to audition them in their environment and see if they really perform properly before spendings hundreds or thousands of dollars.

richteer · 10-03-2008, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prerich

The point is that the speakers sound changed with the amplification. The honk was gone!!! The sound was smooth and alive - with plenty of detail! I would put them on even par with my Snells except my Snells are much taller. So I have replaced my Snells (so they can be turned into highly efficient Audio Note AN-E's) and placed the Heresy's in my HT (Heresy LCR). Watched Iron Man last night and it was just powerful!!!! It was crazy, the first explosion was house rattling (not to mention the rest of them), powerful and very dynamic! I don't think the Pioneer would have done this.

What do you guys think - do some speakers rely on a certain type of amp to sound good? The Heresy's need good amplification (not because they suck power - but horns can stink with the wrong power). I believe that amps can have a sonic signature - what do you think - Chime in everybody

The speakers' sound didn't change (much). They were revealing the sound quality of the amp you used, and its ability to control the speakers. Sometimes its difficult to know to what component changes should be attributed to a change in sound.

So yes, there can always be synergy--or lack thereof--between different components, which is why auditioning components before buying them is so important. I touched on this in another thread a couple of weeks ago, when I was talking about Linn and Naim kit.

prerich · 10-03-2008, 04:29 PM

Good stuff, everyone!!!!

Ric, you are spot on also - as the speakers didn't change - the synergy between the components did!

John and Sork, I agree with you also. John - you made a heavy point when you stated this " componants are bought all too often based on price, aesthetics and if it's in stock or not." This is definately the wrong way to buy components. All of these are factors, but if it doesn't sound good - isn't it a waste of money anyway? These are all excellent anwers!!!

Question - have you ever heard a speaker that you didn't like, sound good on another rig? Or taken a system out of one enviornment and placed it into another and the sound changed dramtically?

prerich · 10-03-2008, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John72953

I agree Prerich! We all want our systems to look good, but I'd rather they sound good!

Amen!!!!!

Beta Man · 10-03-2008, 04:44 PM

I'd jab big holes in my speaker cabinets with a rusty screw-driver if I knew it'd make them sound better...... I don't care what they look like... same with the room.... the paint, curtains, furniture, plants, nasty carpet (rather than going with nice hardwood) and DIY bass traps aren't pretty...... but they serve either an audio, or video (in the case of the paint/curtains) benefit.

prerich · 10-03-2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beta Man

I'd jab big holes in my speaker cabinets with a rusty screw-driver if I knew it'd make them sound better...... I don't care what they look like... same with the room.... the paint, curtains, furniture, plants, nasty carpet (rather than going with nice hardwood) and DIY bass traps aren't pretty...... but they serve either an audio, or video (in the case of the paint/curtains) benefit.

My kinda thinking indeed!!!!

Remember the "green marker" trick for CD's and digital jitter?!!!

mdabb · 10-03-2008, 08:26 PM

Now that I am using an amp on the front L/R channels instead of the receiver there has been a dramatic improvement in terms of SQ and available power.

It's almost as if the amp in the receiver is there only to do a job. The Pass X150.5 is so much better in every way I am now tempted to find something for the center and surround channels.

I wish I could bi-amp the center channel and even the surrounds with my Onkyo TX-SR875. I think the other speakers are jealous now and wouldn't mind trying something out to help improve the sound for them. The sound is not bad or anything but as usual just trying to make improvements.

prerich · 10-03-2008, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdabb

Now that I am using an amp on the front L/R channels instead of the receiver there has been a dramatic improvement in terms of SQ and available power.

It's almost as if the amp in the receiver is there only to do a job. The Pass X150.5 is so much better in every way I am now tempted to find something for the center and surround channels.

I wish I could bi-amp the center channel and even the surrounds with my Onkyo TX-SR875. I think the other speakers are jealous now and wouldn't mind trying something out to help improve the sound for them. The sound is not bad or anything but as usual just trying to make improvements.

That Pass is to die for

!!!!! If you can replace at least the center amp....do it!!!!! Jump on it!!!!! RUN!!!!!

!!!!

RUR · 10-03-2008, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdabb

I wish I could bi-amp the center channel and even the surrounds with my Onkyo TX-SR875. I think the other speakers are jealous now and wouldn't mind trying something out to help improve the sound for them. The sound is not bad or anything but as usual just trying to make improvements.

Pass XA160.5 monoblocks?

Back on topic.... Although I read a lot of claims that ABX tests show that properly-designed, same-spec amps not driven to clipping should all sound identical, the same folks generally state that these amps may not sound the same when connected to a given speaker. (I'm still trying to wrap my head around that seeming contradiction)

Part of this may be the lack of specs used for any given amp. Beyond power (and who knows how equitable those measurements are from company to company?), THD, and very few others, what unknown and unpublished performance measures are there which influence what we ultimately hear?

I suspect that another part of this revolves around known (but often unmeasured) amp characteristics such as its ability to deliver current and to perform at the ridiculously low impedences required by some speakers. I've french-fried more than one supposedly high-quality amp while trying to drive early model ML's.

And let's not forget tube (valve) amps... By design, they must sound different. Hell, the same amp will sound different simply by exchanging tubes from different manufacturers. Different bad or different good? It's all in the ear of the beholder.

mdabb · 10-03-2008, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prerich

That Pass is to die for

!!!!! If you can replace at least the center amp....do it!!!!! Jump on it!!!!! RUN!!!!!

!!!!

I really do enjoy it!!!!!!!!!!

I guess I could go for a Pass XA160.5 $$$$$, Power wise it would fit great!!! Even though surround channels don't see much action I feel bad treating my Dali Helicon 300s like step children.

mdabb · 10-04-2008, 12:02 AM

What about "warm up" period for amps??? With my amp I feel that the sound gets even better after about 20 minutes or so. Might just be the mind tricks or maybe I convinced myself the sound is fuller more there when the amp warms up.

Maybe I get a little carried away but I usually let my amp idle for about 5 minutes or so before listening to anything.

I feel that the speaker's sound improves after short period of time as well !!! Could be that my ears become acquainted but in any case I feel that a "warm up" period exist.

prerich · 10-04-2008, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdabb

What about "warm up" period for amps??? With my amp I feel that the sound gets even better after about 20 minutes or so. Might just be the mind tricks or maybe I convinced myself the sound is fuller more there when the amp warms up.

Maybe I get a little carried away but I usually let my amp idle for about 5 minutes or so before listening to anything.

I feel that the speaker's sound improves after short period of time as well !!! Could be that my ears become acquainted but in any case I feel that a "warm up" period exist.

Well this may be a little off topic, but I know it took a few minutes for a church I used to attend's Hammond B3 to warm up (it used tubes you could see them glowing because they had the back off) once it got going, with the right person behind it, knowing when to flip that rotary switch for the leslie -oohhhhhh

! We would let that organ idle for about 7 minutes before playing.

One of the things I liked about these Heresys - on a track called "I want to believe" my son and I could hear the oragnist flippin' the drawbars on the organ!!! I kid you not!!!!

prerich · 10-04-2008, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RUR

Pass XA160.5 monoblocks?

Back on topic.... Although I read a lot of claims that ABX tests show that properly-designed, same-spec amps not driven to clipping should all sound identical, the same folks generally state that these amps may not sound the same when connected to a given speaker. (I'm still trying to wrap my head around that seeming contradiction)

Part of this may be the lack of specs used for any given amp. Beyond power (and who knows how equitable those measurements are from company to company?), THD, and very few others, what unknown and unpublished performance measures are there which influence what we ultimately hear?

I suspect that another part of this revolves around known (but often unmeasured) amp characteristics such as its ability to deliver current and to perform at the ridiculously low impedences required by some speakers. I've french-fried more than one supposedly high-quality amp while trying to drive early model ML's.

And let's not forget tube (valve) amps... By design, they must sound different. Hell, the same amp will sound different simply by exchanging tubes from different manufacturers. Different bad or different good? It's all in the ear of the beholder.

You are correct kind sir - It's all subjective

.... except bad sound - most people know it when they hear it...or do we?

Woody · 10-04-2008, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdabb

Now that I am using an amp on the front L/R channels instead of the receiver there has been a dramatic improvement in terms of SQ and available power.

It's almost as if the amp in the receiver is there only to do a job. The Pass X150.5 is so much better in every way I am now tempted to find something for the center and surround channels.

I wish I could bi-amp the center channel and even the surrounds with my Onkyo TX-SR875. I think the other speakers are jealous now and wouldn't mind trying something out to help improve the sound for them. The sound is not bad or anything but as usual just trying to make improvements.

Mmmmm, I likes me some Pass Labs.

richteer · 10-04-2008, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdabb

What about "warm up" period for amps??? With my amp I feel that the sound gets even better after about 20 minutes or so. Might just be the mind tricks or maybe I convinced myself the sound is fuller more there when the amp warms up.

That makes sense. Everything has to settle in, and I usually switch my amps on for 30 mins or so before a serious listening session.

RUR · 10-04-2008, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdabb

What about "warm up" period for amps??? With my amp I feel that the sound gets even better after about 20 minutes or so. Might just be the mind tricks or maybe I convinced myself the sound is fuller more there when the amp warms up.

Maybe I get a little carried away but I usually let my amp idle for about 5 minutes or so before listening to anything.

I know a lot of guys with SS gear who firmly believe that it sounds best when allowed to warm up for some period of time. Even a couple who leave it on 24/7. With tubes, it's pretty much de rigeur and, like Rich, I turn mine on and wait at least half an hour before I sit down for any critical listening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prerich

You are correct kind sir - It's all subjective

.... except bad sound - most people know it when they hear it...or do we?

Heh, there was a thread over on AVS on how important it is to have a completely neutral speaker. It quickly turned into a flame war when the posters couldn't agree on the premise or even on the definition of "neutral". While there are certainly "bad" sounds - distortion, muddy bass etc. - I don't think there is any "correct" sound which works for everyone, as each listener brings their own psychoacoustic preferences to the table. I do think that people's preferences can evolve over time if they're able to listen to a variety of gear or to more revealing gear.

Johnny Vinyl · 10-04-2008, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RUR

I don't think there is any "correct" sound which works for everyone, as each listener brings their own psychoacoustic preferences to the table. I do think that people's preferences can evolve over time if they're able to listen to a variety of gear or to more revealing gear.

+1 ....I couldn't agree more if I tried!

sokrman14 · 10-05-2008, 11:34 PM

I have heard plenty of speakers that "I" dont like. A lot of sound is based on preference. This has lead me to really dislike spec sheets and some magazines that only use physics based reviews. Some people try to base performance on physics and such, which is not the way to test equipment.

I think it may be a guide to go by, but when someone hooks up their amp to a diagnostic computer or speakers to a mic and try compare one speaker to another based on what a computer printout says it defeats the purpose of your own ears and brain. Many magazines and their reviewers use this method when they test equipment, and I always find it useless information because it doesnt explain anything of what the speaker sounds like.

The better magazines leave this stuff out, or have it available for those who are interested in it, but have full detailed descriptions of the sonics, and even more important what equipment they used with it while testing.

10-03-2008, 03:13 PM	#1
prerich Moderator Top ranked HT gallery Top contributor Member since:Dec 2007 Home Theater Gallery:50 Blu-ray reviews:1 Trading Score:2	Speakers and the right Amplification Speakers and the room are the only things that you actually hear. That being said, I also believe that certain amps can give your speakers a different sound. I'm not a fan of the current Klipsch stuff (I haven't heard the Icon series yet - they do look pretty though) - but I am a fan of the older stuff. The knock against horns is generally a honkiness sound from them. I have head this myself (with Tanget 50's). I had a pair of Heresy's and sold them because of the way they sounded with a Pioneer receiver I had - honky horns. I got a good deal of money out of the sale. I bought them because I had heard them before, but the system was different - it was on seperates with an old SAE amp. The sound was great!!! nothing like what I had experienced with the ones I had bought (I was expecting the same results to my dismay). I decided to give the old Klipsch one more try (knowing if I didn't like'em - I could flip'em). I bought 2 pair for $300.00 total. Wired them up, turned my M-80 on and whala!!!! The magic was there!!!! Soundstage reached far above and beyond the speakers. My son and I put on some of our favorite gospel and jazz music and it was like we were there!!! (Gospel concerts have a lot of feeling and depth because people talk in the audiance - its very moving). I ran my M-80 in Class A mode. The point is that the speakers sound changed with the amplification. The honk was gone!!! The sound was smooth and alive - with plenty of detail! I would put them on even par with my Snells except my Snells are much taller. So I have replaced my Snells (so they can be turned into highly efficient Audio Note AN-E's) and placed the Heresy's in my HT (Heresy LCR). Watched Iron Man last night and it was just powerful!!!! It was crazy, the first explosion was house rattling (not to mention the rest of them), powerful and very dynamic! I don't think the Pioneer would have done this. What do you guys think - do some speakers rely on a certain type of amp to sound good? The Heresy's need good amplification (not because they suck power - but horns can stink with the wrong power). I believe that amps can have a sonic signature - what do you think - Chime in everybody Last edited by prerich; 10-03-2008 at 03:17 PM.

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10-03-2008, 03:41 PM	#2
Johnny Vinyl Moderator Top ranked HT gallery Top contributor Member since:Jul 2007 Location:At the crossroad of Analogue Dr & 2CH Ave Home Theater Gallery:19 Blu-ray collection:205 DVD collection:7 Blu-ray reviews:3 Trading Score:8	I agree Prerich! Every componant has it's own signature and we would do well to audition various alternatives prior to making a purchase, although that is not always possible. We know that audiophile junkies are constantly changing their gear for that optimum sound. But in some respects, I think it's even more important for lesser priced systems. IMHO, componants are bought all too often based on price, aesthetics and if it's in stock or not. I'm about to (once again) get into the highend 2-Channel Analog world and I will definately research, find opinion and do extensive auditioning before making a decision on the componants to buy. We all want our systems to look good, but I'd rather they sound good! Good post! I love this kind of dialogue!

10-03-2008, 03:50 PM	#3
sokrman14 Special Member Member since:Mar 2006 Location:Omaha, NE Home Theater Gallery:9 Blu-ray collection:32 Blu-ray reviews:1 Trading Score:1	I definitely agree with you as well. A lot of people think that all amps, receivers, etc sound alike. They think all solid states are built of equal quality, and they just arent. Every company that uses their own materials will have a different sound from one another, and some speakers just work better with certain amps. You will often find companies that make both speakers and amps, they test them together and often perform best together for that reason. But for companies that only specialize in one or the other, I definitely think that someone who is changing out an amp or speakers needs to audition them in their environment and see if they really perform properly before spendings hundreds or thousands of dollars.

10-03-2008, 04:29 PM	#5
prerich Moderator Top ranked HT gallery Top contributor Member since:Dec 2007 Home Theater Gallery:50 Blu-ray reviews:1 Trading Score:2	Good stuff, everyone!!!! Ric, you are spot on also - as the speakers didn't change - the synergy between the components did! John and Sork, I agree with you also. John - you made a heavy point when you stated this " componants are bought all too often based on price, aesthetics and if it's in stock or not." This is definately the wrong way to buy components. All of these are factors, but if it doesn't sound good - isn't it a waste of money anyway? These are all excellent anwers!!! Question - have you ever heard a speaker that you didn't like, sound good on another rig? Or taken a system out of one enviornment and placed it into another and the sound changed dramtically?

10-03-2008, 04:44 PM	#7
Beta Man Moderator Top contributor Member since:Jan 2008 Location:Juuuuuuuust A Bit Outside.... Home Theater Gallery:4 Blu-ray collection:268 Blu-ray reviews: 18 Trading Score:25	I'd jab big holes in my speaker cabinets with a rusty screw-driver if I knew it'd make them sound better...... I don't care what they look like... same with the room.... the paint, curtains, furniture, plants, nasty carpet (rather than going with nice hardwood) and DIY bass traps aren't pretty...... but they serve either an audio, or video (in the case of the paint/curtains) benefit.

10-03-2008, 08:26 PM	#9
mdabb Power Member Member since:Jan 2008 Trading Score:1	Now that I am using an amp on the front L/R channels instead of the receiver there has been a dramatic improvement in terms of SQ and available power. It's almost as if the amp in the receiver is there only to do a job. The Pass X150.5 is so much better in every way I am now tempted to find something for the center and surround channels. I wish I could bi-amp the center channel and even the surrounds with my Onkyo TX-SR875. I think the other speakers are jealous now and wouldn't mind trying something out to help improve the sound for them. The sound is not bad or anything but as usual just trying to make improvements.

10-04-2008, 12:02 AM	#13
mdabb Power Member Member since:Jan 2008 Trading Score:1	What about "warm up" period for amps??? With my amp I feel that the sound gets even better after about 20 minutes or so. Might just be the mind tricks or maybe I convinced myself the sound is fuller more there when the amp warms up. Maybe I get a little carried away but I usually let my amp idle for about 5 minutes or so before listening to anything. I feel that the speaker's sound improves after short period of time as well !!! Could be that my ears become acquainted but in any case I feel that a "warm up" period exist.

10-05-2008, 11:34 PM	#20
sokrman14 Special Member Member since:Mar 2006 Location:Omaha, NE Home Theater Gallery:9 Blu-ray collection:32 Blu-ray reviews:1 Trading Score:1	I have heard plenty of speakers that "I" dont like. A lot of sound is based on preference. This has lead me to really dislike spec sheets and some magazines that only use physics based reviews. Some people try to base performance on physics and such, which is not the way to test equipment. I think it may be a guide to go by, but when someone hooks up their amp to a diagnostic computer or speakers to a mic and try compare one speaker to another based on what a computer printout says it defeats the purpose of your own ears and brain. Many magazines and their reviewers use this method when they test equipment, and I always find it useless information because it doesnt explain anything of what the speaker sounds like. The better magazines leave this stuff out, or have it available for those who are interested in it, but have full detailed descriptions of the sonics, and even more important what equipment they used with it while testing.

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