Audio Terminology!

[Johnny Vinyl]

I'm not new to the world of audio by any stretch and I have fairly well-developed audiophile ear. Meaning, I know what I like when I hear something and why I like it over another product. But I must admit that some "buzzwords" leave me confused.

For instance, what is "warmth" in an Amp? What is "neutral"? How do I know an amp is "warm" when I have no other to compare it to? You get my drift, right?

Here is the question! Does anyone know of a paper that explains (in lay-man's terms) the meaning of all this terminology? Maybe there is someone here that can explain it and is willing to post a descriptive response.

I hope I've explained it properly

[prerich]

Originally Posted by John72953

I'm not new to the world of audio by any stretch and I have fairly well-developed audiophile ear. Meaning, I know what I like when I hear something and why I like it over another product. But I must admit that some "buzzwords" leave me confused.

For instance, what is "warmth" in an Amp? What is "neutral"? How do I know an amp is "warm" when I have no other to compare it to? You get my drift, right?

Here is the question! Does anyone know of a paper that explains (in lay-man's terms) the meaning of all this terminology? Maybe there is someone here that can explain it and is willing to post a descriptive response.

I hope I've explained it properly

It's a rich quality to the music which leans more toward the mids than the highs. Very smooth quality to the particular piece of equipment (warm amps tend to give a rich sound to the mids - this is why warm amps are generally coulpled with overly agressive speakers like Klipsch or speakers that have extended highs like the new JBL's or the old Infiinty's with Emit tweeters - so the amp can "tame" the speaker and it won't sound fatiguing - which means basicly wearing you out with the highs to the point that you do not want to listen anymore). I hope this helps

[jibucha]

Hello

Warmth l This is a coloration of the original accurate sound that is considered 'pleasant', subjectively speaking. It actually is distortion of the original accurate audio signal that is misunderstood, but considered pleasant sounding, hence it's popularity. It is not a consistent sound quality other than it's inaccuracy and pleasantness.

Neutral l This is the original accurate sound that is without any coloration representing the original sound whether on the source material or playback system. Apparently, given the popularity of inaccurate audio systems, this is not normally appreciated for it's outstanding sound quality. Very few in my experience understand these issues and have truly accurate High Fidelity Systems.

High Fidelity l What this means is that if you were at the original recording session, whether in a studio or live event, that if you were comparing what you heard at the original recording situation, that that is exactly what you would hear in your playback system. This after all, is what High Fidelity means; true to the original.

In my experience, nothing compares to High Fidelity system playback; it is without exception, outstanding.

It would take several pages of explanation to do it just to explain, but I hope this is somewhat helpful.

I sincerely hope that this is helpful to you.

Thank You

Originally Posted by John72953

I'm not new to the world of audio by any stretch and I have fairly well-developed audiophile ear. Meaning, I know what I like when I hear something and why I like it over another product. But I must admit that some "buzzwords" leave me confused.

For instance, what is "warmth" in an Amp? What is "neutral"? How do I know an amp is "warm" when I have no other to compare it to? You get my drift, right?

Here is the question! Does anyone know of a paper that explains (in lay-man's terms) the meaning of all this terminology? Maybe there is someone here that can explain it and is willing to post a descriptive response.

I hope I've explained it properly

[Lucy Diamond]

Warmth is actually the use of more even order harmonics withing the audio spectrum.

Odd order harmonics create listening fatigue but have thier place.

The absolute BEST way to hear and learn WARM is with a guitar amp.
Ask a friend or go to a music store and have someone play a few notes through a solid state (line 6, crate, Marshall MGFX) amp and then have them play through a Tube amp (Fender twin, Mesa/ Boogie, standard Marshall) and you will understand instantly what is going on.

Sound is what we hear, but beneath that are thousands of layers called harmonics and that is what we EXPERIENCE. Welcome to a deeper world my friend.

You have just discovered your soul.

[RUR]

Originally Posted by jibucha

Neutral l This is the original accurate sound that is without any coloration representing the original sound whether on the source material or playback system. Apparently, given the popularity of inaccurate audio systems, this is not normally appreciated for it's outstanding sound quality. Very few in my experience understand these issues and have truly accurate High Fidelity Systems.

I've mentioned this in a couple of posts, so........ For fun with the adjective "neutral" as applied to audio (speakers, in this case), see this thread.

Nouns, verbs and adjectives become infinitely flexible and highly subjective when applied to music reproduction. One man's warmth is another man's neutral, etc., etc. Only the listener can determine what they like, and what they like is the only thing that counts.

PS: If anyone can figure out what language Srajan Ebaen is speaking, let me know.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by KingLeerUK

I want to hear the music, no the speakers or the amp. In my ideal world, the music comes out of the thin air without the constraint of a physical device.

Agreed, that's the ideal. But one must spend a lot of money to even approach this level of idealism. Your typical Onkyo 805 and Axiom speakers (to pick two random brands that are popular here) are a nowhere near the required performance level.

[sokrman14]

Originally Posted by prerich

It's a rich quality to the music which leans more toward the mids than the highs. Very smooth quality to the particular piece of equipment (warm amps tend to give a rich sound to the mids - this is why warm amps are generally coulpled with overly agressive speakers like Klipsch or speakers that have extended highs like the new JBL's or the old Infiinty's with Emit tweeters - so the amp can "tame" the speaker and it won't sound fatiguing - which means basicly wearing you out with the highs to the point that you do not want to listen anymore). I hope this helps

I think that you give a pretty accurate description of warmth, but a warm amp and bright speakers shouldnt be coupled. You don't want to buy something that lacks in a certain category, then have to be another piece piece of equipment to make up for its shortcomings. Instead you should try to find equipment which is neutral to "your" ear, including speakers and amps. Robert Harley has a great book which explains this called "Introductory Guide to High-Performance Audio Systems: Stereo - Surround Sound - Home Theater ". He actually has a few books available as well.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by sokrman14

I think that you give a pretty accurate description of warmth, but a warm amp and bright speakers shouldnt be coupled. You don't want to buy something that lacks in a certain category, then have to be another piece piece of equipment to make up for its shortcomings. Instead you should try to find equipment which is neutral to "your" ear, including speakers and amps. Robert Harley has a great book which explains this called "Introductory Guide to High-Performance Audio Systems: Stereo - Surround Sound - Home Theater ". He actually has a few books available as well.

I can take that spankin' You are actually correct.

[Lucy Diamond]

Originally Posted by KingLeerUK

While I don't disagree that harmonics are an important aspect of any audible experience, I maintain that having audio equipment "introduce" additional harmonics/noise/nuances/colouration/black-magic/fairy-dust is contrary to the true goal of realistic source reproduction.

I want to hear the music, no the speakers or the amp. In my ideal world, the music comes out of the thin air without the constraint of a physical device.

"Experience" is a very subjective (and marketing friendly) way of trying to expound upon the basic sense of hearing. Unless we are speaking of sub-harmonics which might be sensed via vibration (aka "feeling"), then harmonics are still the realm of hearing.

Actually odd order and even order harmonics are just a reality.

I never mentioned altering anything.

Different pieces of equipment reproduce sound differently.

"Experience" is something soulful and personal, just like the way you want to hear music...which isn't possible....so...I'm moving on.

OP, I hope your question was answered.

Enjoy all,

[cravnsn]

Warm is the feeling you get deep down in your soul when you listen to a system that is balanced towards the “warm” side.

Bright & shrill is what you get if you listen to Celine Dione.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by cravnsn

Warm is the feeling you get deep down in your soul when you listen to a system that is balanced towards the “warm” side.

Bright & shrill is what you get if you listen to Celine Dione.

I would agree with that, especially your second paragraph!

[Johnny Vinyl]

Some really interesting comments by everyone. And from what I can gather, I think I do understand. It's just that the terminology confuses me at times.

When I started my quest for speakers to complete and round out my HT setup, I listened to several brands and I knew instantly what I liked and didn't like. Some speakers, even after a short time, give me serious listener fatigue and some sounded good, but didn't give me that special sound (for me) that I knew I wanted. Then I listened to the Totems and I knew right away. This is a speaker that sounds excellent to me. I should add that all the speakers I auditioned were driven by same amps every time, so I knew I was listening to the variances in the speaker.

The audio terminology world is still, and will probably always confuse me, but after your responses I think I have a better view or understanding of it.

[welwynnick]

I think a neutral amplifier is one that doesn’t apply its own colour or voice to the music. To my mind this is the ideal state of affairs, and it’s probably easier to achieve with electronics than it is with speakers. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect the relatively small frequency response variations in amplifiers to be able to counteract the much larger variations found in speakers, so an amplifier really ought to be neutral. I agree that an amplifier shouldn’t apply it’s own character to the music – that’s the job of the performer and the producer etc.

Where amplifiers do diverge from neutral, they are often called bright or dull, warm or cool. Warm tends to mean a down-tilted or somewhat bandwidth-limited frequency response. But doesn’t that mean the same as “dull”? Perhaps it’s the same thing, but not to the same degree?

I think warm might mean something other than just FR though. The amplifiers amplitude and time domain response ay also contribute. I think a warm amplifier may have a predominance of low- and even-order distortion harmonics, plus a relatively relaxed impulse response, with less damping and longer decays than a tight, dry, cool amplifier.

Just a few thoughts. Nick

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by richteer

Agreed, that's the ideal. But one must spend a lot of money to even approach this level of idealism. Your typical Onkyo 805 and Axiom speakers (to pick two random brands that are popular here) are a nowhere near the required performance level.

Agreed - you need to be shopping for these types of speakers to acheive aural Nirvana

Gallo "Reference 3.1" - http://www.roundsound.com/reference-3-speakers.htm




Sonus Faber "Stradivari" - http://www.sumikoaudio.net/sonus/prod_stradivari.htm




Martin Logan "Statement E2" - http://www.martinlogan.com/




Magnepan "MG 20.1" - http://magnepan.com/model_MG_201




Egglestone Works "The Ivy" - http://www.egglestonworks.com/ivy.htm




German Physik "Loreley Mk III" - http://www.german-physiks.com/german...ey-mk-iii.html




Genesis "Genesis 1.1" - http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/g1p1.html




JMLab "Grande Utopia Be" - http://www.focal.tm.fr/




Nola "Grand Reference IV.I" - http://www.nolaspeakers.com/

[RUR]

Heh, looks like nine or ten tube amps hooked up to those Nola's.

Geez, I love those Stradivari's, though I've yet to hear a pair.

[kingofgrills]

Originally Posted by RUR

Nouns, verbs and adjectives become infinitely flexible and highly subjective when applied to music reproduction. One man's warmth is another man's neutral, etc., etc. Only the listener can determine what they like, and what they like is the only thing that counts.

+1. Well said. That is why it is imperative that you audition gear prior to purchase, and audition several different manufacturers as well. I sorta cringe everytime I hear someone do a blind (deaf?) purchase based off a recommendation on the board. It's not that the recommendation is bad at all, but individual tastes are very subjective.

I try to keep things as "neutral" as possible within my budget, and that's why I've landed on the gear I have. It has been slowly evolving over the last twenty years, and my setup will inevitably continue to do so.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by RUR

Heh, looks like nine or ten tube amps hooked up to those Nola's.

Geez, I love those Stradivari's, though I've yet to hear a pair.

Yeah - those Nola's are freakin' awesome; I love them so much and I haven't even heard them.

There's some more kickass picture of them on this site - www.highendpalace.com

[rded]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Agreed - you need to be shopping for these types of speakers to acheive aural Nirvana

Gallo "Reference 3.1" - http://www.roundsound.com/reference-3-speakers.htm




Sonus Faber "Stradivari" - http://www.sumikoaudio.net/sonus/prod_stradivari.htm




Martin Logan "Statement E2" - http://www.martinlogan.com/




Magnepan "MG 20.1" - http://magnepan.com/model_MG_201




Egglestone Works "The Ivy" - http://www.egglestonworks.com/ivy.htm




German Physik "Loreley Mk III" - http://www.german-physiks.com/german...ey-mk-iii.html




Genesis "Genesis 1.1" - http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/g1p1.html




JMLab "Grande Utopia Be" - http://www.focal.tm.fr/




Nola "Grand Reference IV.I" - http://www.nolaspeakers.com/

The Anthony Gallos are too heavy in the bass that they drown the midrange. Better thean the B$W 700 series definitely.
The Sonus Fabers are "OK". They are neutral(actually more on the warm side) speakers but are overpriced as most of your $$$ go into the manufacturing of the cabinet
The Magnepans- come on now!!! Not really good.
The MLs are decent but are not really musical IMO
I have not heard the last 5 speakers.