2.35:1 on a budget?

[Got2LoveGadgets]

Im looking at upgrading my projector in the next few months (budget about £2000) but im also toying with the idea of replacing my 16:9 screen and going cinema scope! (ideally no more the £1500 for a 90" 2.35:1 motorised screen). Now the facts as I know them are I need a projector that can stretch a 2.35:1 image so it uses the projectors full resolution then an external lense to shrink the top and bottom of the image back down so it fits the screen nicely. Am I correct?

Does anyone have any advice or links to good websites? I know some of you good folk run 2.35:1 screens what projectors are you using and is there a difference in external lense quality (im guessing there is). Are then any down sides to running 2.35:1?

Im also finding it hard to find a UK supply of 2.35:1 screens without spending stupid money so if anyone has any contacts that would be cool!

[Deciazulado]

You don't exactly need a projector that stretches, etc. If a projector has a 1.4x zoom you can use the projector's zoom if you're on a tight budget. I'm moving this to the Projector area. Ask for a Brain Sturgeon there

[Brain Sturgeon]

Somebody called?

Originally Posted by Got2LoveGadgets

Im looking at upgrading my projector in the next few months (budget about £2000) but im also toying with the idea of replacing my 16:9 screen and going cinema scope! (ideally no more the £1500 for a 90" 2.35:1 motorised screen). Now the facts as I know them are I need a projector that can stretch a 2.35:1 image so it uses the projectors full resolution then an external lense to shrink the top and bottom of the image back down so it fits the screen nicely. Am I correct?

You are almost half correct. There are two ways to do CIH with a projector nowadays. The "zoom" technique and the use of an anamorphic lens.

The "zoom" technique is simply using the zoom lens on any projector to fill a 2.35:1 screen, with the black bars falling above and below the screen. You can do this with any projector as long as you are within the appropriate zoom range for your given throw length.

The "lens" technique places an anamorphic lens (typically a 1.33 horizontal expansion lens) in front of your projector's lens. Your projector, or your outboard video scalar, would then need to vertically stretch the projected image 1.33x so that the black bars are excluded from your image panel. As the vertically stretched image passes through the anamorphic lens, your image is reconstituted into the correct aspect ratio onto your scope screen.

There are good and bad things about both:

"zoom" technique
pros: cheaper, easier projector setup, no pincushion introduced into the image.
cons: Reduced horizontal resolution, need to rezoom when switching between 1.85:1 and 2.35:1 material

"lens" technique
pros: Uses the entire imaging panel (full horizontal resolution) to create the image, brighter image (up to ~20% brighter than using the zoom technique), quicker and more elegant switching between aspect ratios (can be done by moving lens in/out using manual/automated sleds and turning the vertical stretch on/off, or by leaving the lens permanently in place and adjusting the aspect ratio electronically using your projector or an outboard scalar, or by using one of Prismasonic's lenses that leaves the lens in place and switches between anamorphic and non-anamorphic "pass through" modes)
cons: introduction of pincushion distortion into the image, reduction of MTF and subsequently ANSI contrast by introduction of another lens into the light path, more expensive, more complicated projector set-up.

Does anyone have any advice or links to good websites?

One of the best forums out there for 2.35:1 setups is on AVS:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=117

I know some of you good folk run 2.35:1 screens what projectors are you using and is there a difference in external lense quality (im guessing there is).

Yes, there is, and as you might guess, higher lens quality = higher cost.

They can run from sub $1000: Home Theater Brothers, Aussiemorphic; to >$6000: Schneider, ISCO III. This is without a manual or motorized sled. The ISCO III is widely recognized as the best in the business.

Whether or not the lens quality makes it worth the cost is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think I'd buy a 6k lens for a projector less than 2k, but I also wouldn't buy a sub-1k lens for a 15k+ projector. I've seen great image quality from lenses at both ends of the spectrum, but you do get what you pay for with these lenses.

Are then any down sides to running 2.35:1?

Personally, I don't think there are a lot, since you have the best of both worlds with a CIH setup: 1.85:1 and 2.35:1 material filling up the entirety of your screen, sans black bars. Two downsides come to mind: increased cost and subtitle issues with titles that place the subtitles in the bottom black bar area.

Im also finding it hard to find a UK supply of 2.35:1 screens without spending stupid money so if anyone has any contacts that would be cool!

SMX sells a very nice scope screen (ProLine) as well as a curved scope screen (ProLine Curv) for reasonable prices, and they are being distributed by SIM2 UK. Check out their website:

www.smxscreen.com

You could also consider a DIY screen to save a bit of money. AVS also has a great section of DIY screens.

One projector that you may want to look into is the new Panasonic PT-AE3000, which will have a feature built in where you can setup the projector to automatically zoom in and out for a CIH setup (i.e. an automated "zoom" setup).

[saprano]

Sturge your not a projecter mod yet? what are they waiting for?

[Chevypower]

if you get a 16:9 screen and don't fully extend it, you can get 2.35:1 - then adjust it's length for whatever you're watching :-) you did say budget, but I have been to cinemas where the screens are electrically adjusted (with masking) vertically and not horizontally.

[Got2LoveGadgets]

Brain Sturgeon thank you very much for your time allot of extremely useful advice

[Got2LoveGadgets]

Originally Posted by Chevypower

if you get a 16:9 screen and don't fully extend it, you can get 2.35:1 - then adjust it's length for whatever you're watching :-) you did say budget, but I have been to cinemas where the screens are electrically adjusted (with masking) vertically and not horizontally.

I have actually done this in the past but it makes the image a bit to high. I have looked at the electrically adjusted masking screens but they are coming in at over £4000 which is out of my budget!

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by Got2LoveGadgets

I have actually done this in the past but it makes the image a bit to high. I have looked at the electrically adjusted masking screens but they are coming in at over £4000 which is out of my budget!

Electric masking fundamentally is an automatic blind system. Motors pull the mask to the desired position and then stops. It pulls it back when you need the full 2.40 screen. So in itself, it's not complicated to DIY. You just have to know your basic electronics, or someone who can design the system with you for cheap. Remember, it's just motors that pull the masking cloth on a rail.

As far as motorised screen, that to me is pointless for a room that is supposed to be a dedicated projector room. After all, do you move your surround speakers as well? I think not.

My suggestion is fix the 2.40 screen to the wall permanently. Then use the mask to 1) completely cover it when you're not using it, 2) uncover it for 1.78 mode, and 3) uncover it completely for 2.40 mode.


fuad

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by saprano

Sturge your not a projecter mod yet? what are they waiting for?

Actually, thanks to you and several others' suggestions, I was given "Home Theater" mod status a bit ago. It didn't change the title under my name (it still reads "Senior Member"), but I don't mind being a bit incognito.

Originally Posted by Chevypower

if you get a 16:9 screen and don't fully extend it, you can get 2.35:1 - then adjust it's length for whatever you're watching :-) you did say budget, but I have been to cinemas where the screens are electrically adjusted (with masking) vertically and not horizontally.

Yup, that would be a constant width system (aka CIW versus CIH), and is another way to get rid of black bars. As you mentioned, if you have a drop down, or bottom up, automated screen, you can just lower it (or raise it) to the correct aspect ratio. However, unlike a CIH system, you don't get the benefit of a suddenly wider image, which is what gives these theaters the "wow" factor.

In addition to this method, Carada has a vertical masking system called the Masquerade which will mask off the black bars in a CIW system. However, this does add cost to the system; although I think the cost of this add-on system is reasonable.

Horizontal masking systems are MUCH more expensive. Stewart Filmscreen, SMX, and others make these; but you are talking screens in the 10-20k range.

Originally Posted by Got2LoveGadgets

Brain Sturgeon thank you very much for your time allot of extremely useful advice

You are most welcome!

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

Electric masking fundamentally is an automatic blind system. Motors pull the mask to the desired position and then stops. It pulls it back when you need the full 2.40 screen. So in itself, it's not complicated to DIY. You just have to know your basic electronics, or someone who can design the system with you for cheap. Remember, it's just motors that pull the masking cloth on a rail.

There is a user at AVS by the name of camarillo_cinema who has an automated horizontal masking system that I've heard is reasonably affordable. I think his website is www.htiq.com

There are a number of users on AVS that have described relatively simple ways to devise an automated side masking system. Search their DIY forums for these.

Otherwise, one of the easiest and cheapest ways is just to set up black drapes on the sides of the screen to manually mask a scope screen when you are watching 1.85:1 or 1.33:1 material.

My suggestion is fix the 2.40 screen to the wall permanently. Then use the mask to 1) completely cover it when you're not using it, 2) uncover it for 1.78 mode, and 3) uncover it completely for 2.40 mode.
fuad

Yup, I would probably do it this way as well. Buy/Make a 2.40:1 screen, and then either live with "black bars" on the side with anything other than 2.40:1 material or devise a horizontal masking system for the screen (e.g. the drapes mentioned above, or simple black velvet panels that you can attach with velcro or magnets).

If you primarily watch movies where 2.40:1 AR is common, then definitely consider a scope setup of one sort or another.

[Beta Man]

anyone try black-felt panels on a "track" system.... so you can just set bump-stops, and push the panels to whatever position you want?

[Got2LoveGadgets]

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

Electric masking fundamentally is an automatic blind system. Motors pull the mask to the desired position and then stops. It pulls it back when you need the full 2.40 screen. So in itself, it's not complicated to DIY. You just have to know your basic electronics, or someone who can design the system with you for cheap. Remember, it's just motors that pull the masking cloth on a rail.

As far as motorised screen, that to me is pointless for a room that is supposed to be a dedicated projector room. After all, do you move your surround speakers as well? I think not.

My suggestion is fix the 2.40 screen to the wall permanently. Then use the mask to 1) completely cover it when you're not using it, 2) uncover it for 1.78 mode, and 3) uncover it completely for 2.40 mode.

fuad

I didn't explain in my first post that my home cinema is also the main living room of my house (speakers are all aesthetically pleasing and match room decor by order or the boss so not a big problem). My current screen comes down over the window and acts as a complete blackout for the room. When I eventually move to a bigger house I will have a purpose built room and as such have a fixed screen. But with the UK housing market being like it is I might not be moving for a year or two!

Having black bars left and right really don't bother me as I only really use my projector for films and nearly all mine are 2.35:1.

I have had a front projection system now for nearly ten years (about to purchase my third projector probably Sanyo LP Z3000 when it comes out in a month or so) and as such hardly ever go to my local cinema. I was recently dragged along to see Wall-E and thought the audio and picture quality was awful but the cinema scope screen kind of made up for it, thats when I decided cinema scope would be my home cinema next leap. It is however proving more difficult then I first thought

Thanks for everyones help I have not given up yet!

[HDJK]

Something I'm considering now is the new Panasonic PT AE 3000. It let's you store 3 zoom settings including digital lens shift (since for scope you don't use the whole panel). It's the perfect solution for zoom CIH and according to the first reviews the PQ is fantastic as well.

[Got2LoveGadgets]

Originally Posted by HDJK

Something I'm considering now is the new Panasonic PT AE 3000. It let's you store 3 zoom settings including digital lens shift (since for scope you don't use the whole panel). It's the perfect solution for zoom CIH and according to the first reviews the PQ is fantastic as well.

I have to say they new Panasonic has not been crossed off my list but I am really fond of my Sanyo and it runs so quiet the new Z3000 runs at less then 19db!

[HDJK]

Originally Posted by Got2LoveGadgets

I have to say they new Panasonic has not been crossed off my list but I am really fond of my Sanyo and it runs so quiet the new 3000 runs at less then 19db!

19dB Is quite impressive; the Panny is supposed to run at 22dB, which is still quiet. Would be nice to compare the 2 performance wise. To me, the zoom memory function is a strong selling point.

[Got2LoveGadgets]

Originally Posted by HDJK

19dB Is quite impressive; the Panny is supposed to run at 22dB, which is still quiet. Would be nice to compare the 2 performance wise. To me, the zoom memory function is a strong selling point.

I was all set on the new Sanyo but the more I read about the Panny im now not so sure
Haven't read anything about lense shift on the Panny do you know if it can do this as I use it on my Sanyo

[HDJK]

I'm not familiar with the the Sanyo, but the AE3000 has both vertical and horizontal LS manually, plus, for 2.35 material there is a digital LS setting that gets stored with the zoom/focus settings.
If you do CIH with zooming on the Sanyo and your PJ isn't exactly in the middle of the screen (vertically) you might need to re-adjust LS manually every time you switch aspect ratios. Something to consider.

[Got2LoveGadgets]

They panny does look like it ticks all the correct boxes. That is an excellent function having stored zoom settings think im starting to change my mind

[HDJK]

Originally Posted by Got2LoveGadgets

...think im starting to change my mind

That's what happened to me. I was set on the Sony VPL VW40, for great PQ and a motorized zoom. Then I heard the news of the Panny...

[Got2LoveGadgets]

HDJK do you have a cinema scope screen?

[HDJK]

Originally Posted by Got2LoveGadgets

HDJK do you have a cinema scope screen?

Yes, it's already mounted, but I'm still saving for the PJ. My home studio is also my HT, so I'm limited in height. The only way to get the most out of scope movies is a scope screen. I could borrow a BENQ W500 for a week; this proved 2 things: 720P won't cut it for me (screendoor is very apparent when watching at 3 picture heights, plus the W500 is too limited in zooming in; no way to get to 16:9 with my throw distance), and I'm not going back to panels

Oh, and it's a DIY screen. Cost me around 150$ all in all.