Audyssey set up ?

[Go Blue]

Hope this is the best place to post this. Yesterday I ran the Audyssey set up on my Onkyo 605 and it came up with some odd setting for the db level of each speaker. I first ran it with my sub's volume set around 1/2 and it set my sub at a -3 and my others between 0 and +3. Then I ran it with the sub's volume near the 1/4 and it set the sub to +3 and all other speakers from -2 to 0. I raised the volume on the sub a bit more and everything came back at 0db's for each speaker, including sub. What do I make of this? Does it really matter?

[sptrout]

Originally Posted by schultz

Hope this is the best place to post this. Yesterday I ran the Audyssey set up on my Onkyo 605 and it came up with some odd setting for the db level of each speaker. I first ran it with my sub's volume set around 1/2 and it set my sub at a -3 and my others between 0 and +3. Then I ran it with the sub's volume near the 1/4 and it set the sub to +3 and all other speakers from -2 to 0. I raised the volume on the sub a bit more and everything came back at 0db's for each speaker, including sub. What do I make of this? Does it really matter?

To me the odd thing about your reported results is that the non-subwoofer channel levels are changing when you change the subwoofer level. This should not happen. Audyssey sets each speaker/channel separately and the levels of any other channel should not matter.

Actually, overall, any of the results would be OK (if they were not changing). If you have not read the Setup Guide at the following link; take some time and read it and then rerun Audyssey if you see anything in the Guide that raises a red flag. It is the Audyssey Setup Bible!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14456895

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by sptrout

To me the odd thing about your reported results is that the non-subwoofer channel levels are changing when you change the subwoofer level. This should not happen. Audyssey sets each speaker/channel separately and the levels of any other channel should not matter.

Actually, overall, any of the results would be OK (if they were not changing). If you have not read the Setup Guide at the following link; take some time and read it and then rerun Audyssey if you see anything in the Guide that raises a red flag. It is the Audyssey Setup Bible!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14456895

What? Of course it's going to change when he changes the sub levels. The sub's amplifier is independent of the receiver/what Audyssey can change. As a result, it compensates for the volume change by raising or lowering the rest of the setup. That's completely normal.

From your link:

G. Calibrate the subwoofer volume
1. Set the volume control on the subwoofer at the middle of the adjustment range allowed.
a. Please note this “starting point” may not work with all subwoofers.
2. Place the microphone at the primary listening position (the center of the listening area) and run through the calibration process for the first measurement—until all speakers have been measured once.
3. After the first measurement process is complete, select "Calculate", then "Save" or "Store", then go to "Check Parameters".
a. Audyssey will calculate the speaker distances and trim levels from this first measurement.
b. Each manufacturer has a slightly different interface, so the terminology may not exactly match.
4. Check the subwoofer trim levels in the receiver / processor menu.
a. If the subwoofers trim level is at the maximum limit of the cut or boost adjustment range allowed, you need to adjust the volume control on the subwoofer and repeat step #2. Specific instructions will follow.
b. For example, Denon receivers have a trim adjustment range from -12dB to +12dB.
c. Trim adjustments are a tool used to achieve the goal of producing a specific SPL from each speaker / subwoofer when the system is played at reference level.
5. If the subwoofer trim level is at the maximum boost, turn up the subwoofer volume a bit and repeat step #2
6. If the subwoofer trim level is at the maximum cut, turn down the subwoofer volume a bit and repeat step #2
7. A suggestion for tweakers is to set the subwoofer trim level in the range of ±3 dB.
a. This is only a suggestion for the tweaker who likes to play around.
b. Audyssey’s position is to perform steps 4 to 6 above.

Thus, volume will affect your entire setup. Mine are coming in at about 0 across the board.

[Go Blue]

Originally Posted by aramis109

Thus, volume will affect your entire setup. Mine are coming in at about 0 across the board.

Thanks aramis, thats what I was looking for. That is why I didn't run it for a 4th time. I figured all levels at 0 was a good balance. I still raised my center a couple for quiet dialogue purposes.

[sptrout]

Originally Posted by aramis109

What? Of course it's going to change when he changes the sub levels. The sub's amplifier is independent of the receiver/what Audyssey can change. As a result, it compensates for the volume change by raising or lowering the rest of the setup. That's completely normal.

From your link:


Thus, volume will affect your entire setup. Mine are coming in at about 0 across the board.

I am sorry, but this is not correct. Audyssey sets the distances and trim levels of each speaker independent of all other speakers, including the subwoofer. The Section of the Guide you quoted is for setting the subwoofer levels only because, like you said, it has its own amp and that makes it more difficult to zero in. (BTW - - Note item 3a in the Section you copied). This whole Section of the Guide is written to help the user get the subwoofer level set somewhere near "0", but it has nothing to do with the trim levels of the other channels.

If you go to: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...95421&page=343 this issue and others are discussed by a number of posters including Chris Kyriakakis (Audyssey Founder and Chief Technology Officer, user name "audyssey").

[Go Blue]

Originally Posted by sptrout

I am sorry, but this is not correct. Audyssey sets the distances and trim levels of each speaker independent of all other speakers, including the subwoofer. The Section of the Guide you quoted is for setting the subwoofer levels only because, like you said, it has its own amp and that makes it more difficult to zero in. (BTW - - Note item 3a in the Section you copied). This whole Section of the Guide is written to help the user get the subwoofer level set somewhere near "0", but it has nothing to do with the trim levels of the other channels.

If you go to: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...95421&page=343 this issue and others are discussed by a number of posters including Chris Kyriakakis (Audyssey Founder and Chief Technology Officer, user name "audyssey").

So, what about my situation? I know for a fact, that I ran it 3 times in a row and only changed the volume on the sub to get differents readings each time.

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by sptrout

I am sorry, but this is not correct. Audyssey sets the distances and trim levels of each speaker independent of all other speakers, including the subwoofer. The Section of the Guide you quoted is for setting the subwoofer levels only because, like you said, it has its own amp and that makes it more difficult to zero in. (BTW - - Note item 3a in the Section you copied). This whole Section of the Guide is written to help the user get the subwoofer level set somewhere near "0", but it has nothing to do with the trim levels of the other channels.

If you go to: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...95421&page=343 this issue and others are discussed by a number of posters including Chris Kyriakakis (Audyssey Founder and Chief Technology Officer, user name "audyssey").

If it does set them independently, then why is schultz getting different settings when the only thing changed was the sub levels?

(Also funny, I see saprano over there trying to talk his way out of a similar Audyssey thread that ended up locked here.)

Anyway, while I haven't gone through that thread (ain't no way, it's 100's of pages) wouldn't it stand to reason that it's trying to set up the proper balance when played at reference levels? Thus, if my sub's volume/gain is cranked all the way up, it needs to send it a lower signal to compensate and/or balance the other speakers differently?

Personally, I just run the fool thing, tweak it slightly for personal taste, and enjoy it.

[sptrout]

Originally Posted by schultz

So, what about my situation? I know for a fact, that I ran it 3 times in a row and only changed the volume on the sub to get differents readings each time.

I do not know why your readings are changing. You may want to either read more of the Audyssey thread at AVS, read the 605 Owners thread, or just reask your question in the Audyssey Thread. Chris "audyssey" is always very willing to answer all kinds of questions assuming some one else doesn't beat him to it.

Remember that Audyssey is setting the trim levels of each channel so that the sound at the first test point (center of listening area) is 75dB SPL ("Reference Level") for each speaker including the subwoofer. Many times the subwoofer number is way off and that is because Audyssey can only control the first amp (in the AVR) not the final amp of the series that is in the subwoofer. This is why people usually have to run Audyssey a few times to get the "relative" level reading that is in the AVR close to zero. The dB level readings as shown in your AVR are just relative numbers and really are for reference only and have very little real meaning.

[sptrout]

Originally Posted by aramis109

If it does set them independently, then why is schultz getting different settings when the only thing changed was the sub levels?

(Also funny, I see saprano over there trying to talk his way out of a similar Audyssey thread that ended up locked here.)

Anyway, while I haven't gone through that thread (ain't no way, it's 100's of pages) wouldn't it stand to reason that it's trying to set up the proper balance when played at reference levels? Thus, if my sub's volume/gain is cranked all the way up, it needs to send it a lower signal to compensate and/or balance the other speakers differently?

Personally, I just run the fool thing, tweak it slightly for personal taste, and enjoy it.

1. I do not know why schultz is having his problems as I mentioned above.
2. The reason "saprano" was asking his questions over at AVS was because of a thread started here that had wrong information (therefore locked). (I was part of that locked thread and had posted wrong information........on this very subject.)
3. Audyssey sets each speaker/channel independently to 75dB SPL during the first sweep of measurements. It cannot fully control the subwoofer channel because it has its own separate amp as you noted, therefore, it is not unusal to see some real wierd subwoofer numbers. It typically takes a few Audyssey runs for the user to zero in the subwoofer level. The Setup Guide was written (and rewritten) to help reduce the number of reruns due to subwoofer level issues.
4. Finally, remember that Audyssey sets the speaker trims to 75dB SPL. The speaker level readings shown in the AVR are relative only and really have little to no real value except for reference (per Chris).

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by sptrout

1. I do not know why schultz is having his problems as I mentioned above.
2. The reason "saprano" was asking his questions over at AVS was because of a thread started here that had wrong information (therefore locked). (I was part of that locked thread and had posted wrong information........on this very subject.)
3. Audyssey sets each speaker/channel independently to 75dB SPL during the first sweep of measurements. It cannot fully control the subwoofer channel because it has its own separate amp as you noted, therefore, it is not unusal to see some real wierd subwoofer numbers. It typically takes a few Audyssey runs for the user to zero in the subwoofer level. The Setup Guide was written (and rewritten) to help reduce the number of reruns due to subwoofer level issues.
4. Finally, remember that Audyssey sets the speaker trims to 75dB SPL. The speaker level readings shown in the AVR are relative only and really have little to no real value except for reference (per Chris).

Heh, I'll accept everything that you're saying, except #2. It was locked because of name-calling and immaturity. I just found it funny to find him digging for evidence to back up his incorrect claim after the fact.

Makes sense that it would hit for 75db, now that you phrase it that way. It's just that I've seen my own settings change from run to run. With only ambient noise (traffic, wind, or heat) being the difference, it just seemed to match up with schultz's subwoofer comments.

[Go Blue]

Crap...now i'm confused again!

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by schultz

Crap...now i'm confused again!

Yeah, I'm not sure why that's happening. You may want to take into consideration any ambient noise. Where were you during the process? Were you in the room? Heat on/off? Fridge? Dog/traffic outside? These could have had some effect. Does your sub have any kind of hum/ground loop interference?

Now that sptrout has explained it more, what he's saying makes more sense than what I was originally suppositing. One thing to realize is that there is no more than a 6db swing between all the calibrations. That could be influenced by the ambient noise and the mic position.

The important question- does it sound good? If so, fuhgeddaboudit. Mine sounds terrific so I don't worry about it too much past the initial setup and occasional recalibration.

[sptrout]

[QUOTE=aramis109;1549034]Heh, I'll accept everything that you're saying, except #2. It was locked because of name-calling and immaturity. I just found it funny to find him digging for evidence to back up his incorrect claim after the fact. QUOTE]

Yea, that thread got weird I do not why it went down hill. Maybe I was referencing the wrong thread. I know that saprano & I had an exchange on this subject (subwoofer levels). I posted the wrong information, he corrected me, I rethought my post and then agreed with him. I noticed later that he asked the Audyssey experts the same questions over at AVS just to make sure. No problem with double checking......this hobby of ours takes a lot of education from all places

The Audyssey thread over at AVS is a gaint and I have been following it for months. It is really unusal to have the CTO of a company posting answers to specific user questions nearly every day. Great stuff!

[Go Blue]

Originally Posted by sptrout

The Audyssey thread over at AVS is a gaint and I have been following it for months. It is really unusal to have the CTO of a company posting answers to specific user questions nearly every day. Great stuff!

I guess I should post this question over there. Problem is I'm blocked from AVS at work and don't have time to post at home. If anyone has time, could you post my question for me over there and let me know what Chris says?

[sptrout]

Originally Posted by schultz

Crap...now i'm confused again!

I agree with aramis109; not sure what is happening. I do not remember ever reading what the margin of error is when Audyssey makes its measuments. I assume that one could not expect to get the exact same level on every channel every time. I ran Audyseey several times 6 months ago when I got my 805 (this was long before that Setup Guide was written), but I cannot tell you if the levels on the main channels changed or not. I was just trying to get the subwoofer level to close to zero or at least close to the other channels.

The goal is not to get all the levels as shown on your 605's level meter to be all zeros, which should be nearly impossible when you realize how Audyssey works. I did record my final levels as shown on the 805's meter:

Left: -1.0
Center: -4.5
Right: -1.5
Right Surround: +.5
Surround Back Right: -2.5
Surround Back Left: -2.0
Surround Left: +.5
Subwoofer: -1.5

These look really odd, but all make sense if you know the type, and location, of each speaker.

[talbers23]

following that guide made a tremendous difference for me.

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by sptrout

I agree with aramis109; not sure what is happening. I do not remember ever reading what the margin of error is when Audyssey makes its measuments. I assume that one could not expect to get the exact same level on every channel every time. I ran Audyseey several times 6 months ago when I got my 805 (this was long before that Setup Guide was written), but I cannot tell you if the levels on the main channels changed or not. I was just trying to get the subwoofer level to close to zero or at least close to the other channels.

The goal is not to get all the levels as shown on your 605's level meter to be all zeros, which should be nearly impossible when you realize how Audyssey works. I did record my final levels as shown on the 805's meter:

Left: -1.0
Center: -4.5
Right: -1.5
Right Surround: +.5
Surround Back Right: -2.5
Surround Back Left: -2.0
Surround Left: +.5
Subwoofer: -1.5

These look really odd, but all make sense if you know the type, and location, of each speaker.

The 805 does .5 db increments? Nice!

Mine came out to be (approximately from memory):
Left: 0
Center: 0 (changed to +2 for my taste)
Right: 0
Sub: +1
Surround left: -2
Surround right: -2

My rear surrounds are very close to my seating position. The sub is the furthest for me. I have all my crossovers manually set at 80hz. I could probably go to 60 but I like how it sounds, so why tweak it to death?

One thing of interest re: that guide is that I was already doing most of the things in there just because I thought it was a good idea to do so. I didn't have the "why" but guessed right anyway.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by schultz

Hope this is the best place to post this. Yesterday I ran the Audyssey set up on my Onkyo 605 and it came up with some odd setting for the db level of each speaker. I first ran it with my sub's volume set around 1/2 and it set my sub at a -3 and my others between 0 and +3. Then I ran it with the sub's volume near the 1/4 and it set the sub to +3 and all other speakers from -2 to 0. I raised the volume on the sub a bit more and everything came back at 0db's for each speaker, including sub. What do I make of this? Does it really matter?

No it doesn't matter, audyssey is chaniging the subs level because your turning the volume nob up and down. and just to let you know, i dont know what anybody else is talking about, but the sub has NOTHING to do with what trims your speakers get. i reapeat nothing. i've ran audyssey a million times and played with my subs nob from the 12 o clock position, and half way down to the bottom. my speaker levels always end up around the same no matter what i have the sub volume at. audyssey sets each speakers trims. and your not going to get the same reading everytime even if you leave the mic in the same location.

And its not odd that your seeing those numbers, thats normal based on your room. everything must be at 75db from the listening position. the first position you run is where audyssey sets the Levels, distances, and delays. every other position it sets the crossovers and does the EQ. how many did you run?

Now who wants to argue me?

[saprano]

Originally Posted by aramis109

I just found it funny to find him digging for evidence to back up his incorrect claim after the fact.

Incorrect claim? i was right with everything i said. i was digging for proof so i could shut you up.

Level information for setting the trims is taken from the first mic position. Mic placement does have an effect since if you're closer to some speakers than others, all other things being equal, the trim level will be lower for the speakers you are closer to. Of course all other things are rarely equal and where the speakers are placed in relation to the walls and furnishings also has an effect.

This is why i told the OP of that "other" thread that if you move the mic back a little from where you have it, your numbers might be a little higher. now you dont have to do it that way you can change it your self. but i think its better to let audyssey set everything and leave it the way it is. yes i do change stuff after i run adyssey, but only by like 2 db. the OP changed his trims all the way up to +10!

[saprano]

What does he mean by low? The levels are set so that you get close (within 2 dB) of reference (75 dB for –30 dBFS). Some people see negative trims on their speakers and panic. These are just relative numbers that are there to make your system play at reference. Trying to move the mic around to "trick" MultEQ into giving you different numbers doesn't make any sense.

If for some unknown reason he doesn't like the trims then he can just change them manually. No need to move the mic.

The thing is i wasn't telling the OP to try and trick anything. i was just letting him know where ever you put the mic its going to affect the trims. i was 100% right on that.

If I said that it must have been for a different reason--can't remember. In any case, the purpose of setting the level is twofold: (1) to make all speakers play at the same level and (2) to make all speakers play at reference when you set the volume control to "0".

For example, if for some strange reason he feels "robbed" that the levels are set to –7 dB, then he can set them to 0. All that means is that reference level will now be at –7 dB on the master volume. But, if he turns up the front levels manually then he must turn up all the other speaker levels as well. Otherwise, the soundstage balance will shift and the results will not be correct.

This is why i think its better to let audyssey set the trims based on "mic placment". unless you have an spl meter to adjust every channel you change back to 75db.