Reflections off a tile wall?

[Wolfy]

Hi all, I think I may have identified a problem that has been bugging me about my system for a while. Ever since I got my new energy speakers that is. It's been since Christmas. My right speaker is next to some tile on the wall for a fireplace and I think it is causing some "audio anomalies"- we'll call them that for now. I can post some pics tomorrow when there is sufficient light, but let's just say I can't put the speaker anywhere else. I only hear these anomalies from the right speaker. (and I switched speakers left to right and didn't see much difference) It is a kind of static which I mentioned in my other thread labeled "clipping receiver?". It could be reflections coming from that tile wall. I noticed when the speaker is between me and the wall I hear this sound in certain situations, and when I am between the speaker and the wall I don't hear it. However, this is all speculation as to what the problem is. So what can I put up temporarily at first and then maybe move to some acoustic tile later? Would a blanket work? Maybe just a towel? If I do this and it goes away, I will be one happy camper and will shell out a reasonable amount for something like the acoustic tile if that is what it needs. Any advice here would be welcomed. Thanks for reading my long post.

[fronn]

a thick towel or blanket should work fine temporarily to test it.

If you need a permanent solution on the cheap, you may want to try a plant between the speaker and tile if you have the room... they absorb sound well, oddly enough (test it out and see if it helps after confirming that's the problem).

[kingofgrills]

It sounds like you need to add some accoustical treatments to your room. I would suggest beginning with the point of first reflection for that speaker off the tile wall. There's a thread stickied on accoustical treatments you should read on how to do this. Adjusting a room can be a bit tricky, so it may take some time and experimentation.

[Gremal]

Quick test/question. What happens when you clap your hands together loudly in your room? If you get reverb, that's another indication that you need to deaden the reflections.

[Wolfy]

Thanks for the replies! I did two things: I put up a blanket over the tile and didn't hear any difference. I also clapped my hands loudly in two spots, one in my usual listening position and once right next to the speaker and the wall. I clapped a couple times and didn't get any reverb. Hmmm. I guess it could be something else? I am kinda out of ideas. I have tried everything I can think of to figure this out. Maybe I have gone crazy and nothing is wrong!! I know, something could still be wrong, even though I am crazy. But, craziness aside, I might try the plant thing.
Thanks for the input guys and I'll post again if I get any new insights.
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[kingofgrills]

Based on the picture you definitely could be picking up reflections from both the tile and metal from the fireplace. The clapping test, while effective, won't always bring a problem to light.

I would suggest checking your overall speaker alignment, which is critical for proper listening. Mismatched distances or angles may give you a small soundstage or poor imaging. Try playing a favorite CD track in 2 channel stereo at a comfortable listening level (not too loud). Next, try moving your front speakers forward away from the wall about 18 inches from where they sit, and play the track again, with you moving back 18 inches from the original listening spot. For this test, place the blanket against the wall/fireplace, directly behind the speaker. I'm guessing you'll hear an audible improvement, and that tells me your speaker positioning next to the fireplace is having a negative impact on what you're hearing.

[Sir Terrence]

You are getting a strong early arriving reflection off of the facade of the fireplace, and it will take more than a blanket or a piece of fabric to deal with it. The speaker is also sitting on a highly reflective surface that will also introduce an audible floor bounce that wreaks havoc with imaging and frequency response. It looks to me that speaker is surrounded with hard highly reflective surfaces that do not reflect evenly, and with no control whatsoever. I would get that speaker out of there, and work hard to find another place for it. I just see too many problems in that position, and to fix it you would have to seriously cover all of those surfaces with obsorptive material to neutralize it effects. It won't look very good, that is for sure. I won't pass the WAF I bet.

[Ofcrlunchbox14]

why not move your sub someplace else and put the speaker in it's place. problem solved

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by Ofcrlunchbox14

why not move your sub someplace else and put the speaker in it's place. problem solved

Look at what is behind that subwoofer, it's another hard wall. Nothing will change.

[Wolfy]

Thanks kingofgrills! I moved the speakers as far as the cables would allow (about 12 inches) and put up the blanket. I didn't notice any difference. I hate to say that it is looking like it is either the speaker, the music I am listening to, or me expecting too much out of nice, but not expensive by any measure, speakers. I suppose it is most likely the latter. But I do notice stuff.

I just had an idea and put it on 5 channel stereo and listened to the surround speakers which I think have the same drivers for tweeters at least, which is where I notice the problem the most. Same "anomalies." Those speakers are nowhere near the tile wall. Well, at least I know what it is not. At this point I am going to chalk it up to the drivers in the speakers. I can't imagine three of my speakers (the front ones I switched and the rear one on the right) all have the exact same problem and that it is because they are all broken exactly the same. Maybe it could be my speakers are so much better than anything I have had before I am expecting to much. Or I am hearing the limitations of cds.
Thanks for all the input from everybody. And thanks for your time.


EDIT: I just got those posts above after I posted this. I will have to consider that this speaker positioning is bad. Help me figure out some better places. I will post pics in a few.

[Big Daddy]

Parts Express sells wall treatment at bargain prices.

Wall Panels (they come in different colors and 2" or 3" thickness, check both pages):
http://www.parts-express.com/wizards...n&WebPage_ID=3

Acoustic Tiles:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...TOKEN=95404669

Corner Traps:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...TOKEN=95404669

Use 3m Adhesive for installation(also available at Home Depot/Wal-Mart):
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=340-255[/QUOTE]

[Wolfy]

If anybody cares at this point here are pictures of my room. Please excuse the clutter, that's just how I roll. I am short on space, too. I live in a condo. Posting these for ideas on how to rearrange so as to avoid the tile wall.
It shows the front but there is a couch and behind that is a large table (my living room/dining room). I really, really don't see any other way to set things up. I could put the tv stand cabinet in front of the windows (the drapes in the picture) but that would be nuts and maybe not really solve the problem. On the left is my kitchen (not shown). I really can't put anything over there. And like I mentioned, The rear is my dining room. The only thing I could imagine doing is putting everthing in the dining room, effectively reversing the living room and dining room. Not a terrible idea. Anybody wanna come over and help me move? Maybe putting the cabinet in front of the fireplace??? Any other ideas? Input at all?
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[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by Wolfy

Hi all, I think I may have identified a problem that has been bugging me about my system for a while. Ever since I got my new energy speakers that is. It's been since Christmas. My right speaker is next to some tile on the wall for a fireplace and I think it is causing some "audio anomalies"- we'll call them that for now. I can post some pics tomorrow when there is sufficient light, but let's just say I can't put the speaker anywhere else. I only hear these anomalies from the right speaker. (and I switched speakers left to right and didn't see much difference) It is a kind of static which I mentioned in my other thread labeled "clipping receiver?". It could be reflections coming from that tile wall. I noticed when the speaker is between me and the wall I hear this sound in certain situations, and when I am between the speaker and the wall I don't hear it. However, this is all speculation as to what the problem is. So what can I put up temporarily at first and then maybe move to some acoustic tile later? Would a blanket work? Maybe just a towel? If I do this and it goes away, I will be one happy camper and will shell out a reasonable amount for something like the acoustic tile if that is what it needs. Any advice here would be welcomed. Thanks for reading my long post.

Wolfy, look at my gallery. I have a corner fireplace a couple of feet from my left Energy C-300 tower. The right tower isn't near any wall at all. Both left and right towers sound very much alike and I don't hear any anomalies. One thing that might be different in my room is the tile. My tile is textured rough ceramic tile and covers all 2500 sq ft of living space in addition to some decorating the fireplace. The highs in my room sound very open, spacious and detailed, likewise for the midrange. The textured tile is effectively scattering the high frequencies instead of beaming them like it would do off smooth tile. Looking at the YPAO results after calibration using Flat setting, there was very little if any high frequency cut above 5K HZ. The only cut in midrange was at around 800 HZ at -1.0 db. In fact the fronts have about +4.0 db at 8K HZ applied to them. The PEQ settings were the opposite in the lower end below 300 HZ, where there were some significant equalization both cut and boost at various frequencies from 60 HZ to 200 HZ especially.

I don't know if you have Audyssey, YPAO, Pioneer's EQ Cal whatever that is, or whatever else, but just look at the results after using the flat EQ setting. Notice where there is significant boost/cut (+/- 5.0 db) at any frequencies. You might get a clue as to where the anomaly is occurring. It might even reveal a blown tweeter or woofer in your system. It sounds like the latter to me. Woofers or midrange drivers can sometime still make a sound if damaged, and the sound I heard from damage woofers and midrange speakers sounds more like static. I hate to be a bearer of bad news, but from reading your post it sounds like a bad driver to me.

[Wolfy]

Hi rwojtalewicz! Thanks for the reply. I am not sure how look at the results you mentioned. I have Audyssey and don't know how to see the frequencies? All it does for me is display the dB adjustments made, distance, crossover, and allows me to implement EQ as Flat or bypass L/R or Audyssey. I have a Denon 1708. Do you hook it up to something, a computer perhaps?
Actually, our setups seem extremely similar. Amazing what a small world it is. The stuff I hear, which seems to be coming from the speaker, only occurs at certain frequencies as far as I can tell. And I hear it (to varying degrees) from 3 out of 4 speakers. Two c-300's and a c-100 surround. I am not sure about the 4th surround and am pretty sure the center (cc-50) doesn't do it, I just listened to it on 5ch stereo to get the same sound from it. Maybe the center has the same driver as the rest? If so, you may be right. That's disturbing. I am going to the energy website now and checking the drivers.

Edit: just checked. Uh-oh. It seems they all have a "chambered 1" aluminum dome." Am I screwed???

Edit: maybe I should come over to your house and listen to your speakers!

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by Wolfy

Hi rwojtalewicz! Thanks for the reply. I am not sure how look at the results you mentioned. I have Audyssey and don't know how to see the frequencies? All it does for me is display the dB adjustments made, distance, crossover, and allows me to implement EQ as Flat or bypass L/R or Audyssey. I have a Denon 1708. Do you hook it up to something, a computer perhaps?
Actually, our setups seem extremely similar. Amazing what a small world it is. The stuff I hear, which seems to be coming from the speaker, only occurs at certain frequencies as far as I can tell. And I hear it (to varying degrees) from 3 out of 4 speakers. Two c-300's and a c-100 surround. I am not sure about the 4th surround and am pretty sure the center (cc-50) doesn't do it, just listened to it on 5ch stereo to get the same sound from it. Maybe the center has the same driver as the rest? If so, you may be right. That's disturbing. I am going to the energy website now and checking the drivers.

From my experience it was the cone type drivers that more often produced static when damaged. Tweeters sound good until they die. After they die, there isn't any sound. It could be one of the woofer's voice coil form rubbing against the sides of the gap that's cut into the magnet inside of which the voice coil moves back and forth. If you can isolate the speaker and that speaker is cone type driver, try this, but do so at your own risk because you don't want to do this if the speaker isn't damaged. Gently push the cone in using pressure with you finger on the center of the cone and then release it and do so as many times as you want but not hard though. If you feel any resistance, hear any scraping or rubbing sound, then you found the culprit. You shouldn't hear or feel anything unless you hit the magnet's pole. If you push it in too far it will hit the pole of the magnet. Don't do that especially if it's an undamaged speaker! The voil coil should be absolutely free in its excursion limits. This was exactly the case with my first C-C100 center speaker. I returned it to the dealer and they sent a new one back which worked perfectly. The damaged one was in a sealed carton never before opened. Well it happens. These speakers although design and engineered in Canada are assembled in China and who knows what kind of QC they get before shipping them.

Edit: just checked. Uh-oh. It seems they all have a "chambered 1" aluminum dome." Am I screwed???

No, you're not screwed. That's good actually because they're all timbre matched which is what you want.

Edit: maybe I should come over to your house and listen to your speakers!

You're certainly welcome to. That can be arranged especially if you live in Arizona. I would like to hear yours too. Instead of making a trip, I'd save the money toward having a professional home theater technician come out and check your speaker system. They'll calibrate it probably much better than Audyssey can. If you have a bad speaker, they'll definitely find it.

[Wolfy]

How are you analyzing your calibration results? With a computer program? Any less intrusive ideas on how to check my woofers?

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by Wolfy

How are you analyzing your calibration results? With a computer program? Any less intrusive ideas on how to check my woofers?

Well, it's not at all scientific, but just by eye. This only gives you clues. I could plot them as x/y line charts, but that isn't necessary. I look for + 6 db to +10 db adjustments in speaker response reported by YPAO. That's excessive and tells me something just isn't right. It could be due to the room, the speaker's position, or a damaged driver.

A less intrusive way to find a damaged woofer is to play music at moderate levels like jazz having plenty of high frequency content in the brass and in the upper percussion like the sizzle cymbals, crash cymbals, hi-hat, and snare drums. A damaged woofer distorts the sound usually sounding like static instead of the normally expected sound at these higher frequencies. I singled out a bad C-C100 speaker this way. Actually it was my wife's listening to music who first discovered some distortion or static coming from one of the speakers. I isolated to the center. When I pushed the cone in, I could feel it rubbing against something, most likey the gap in the magnet.