Screenshot Comparisons 4K

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

[edit] And not even the almighty UHDA 'Premium' certification will guarantee accuracy out of the box, all it will do is state that x TV can hit x target of their specs. Just like now, sets will still need specific fine-tuning in order to ensure that they're displaying the gamut correctly, amongst other things.

True, but when BD came out, most if not all TVs could do 100% of REC.709 and had a precise gamma of 2.2, no roomplay there, just a hard standard.

Today we need "UHD Premium" as a goal for TV manufacturers to reach the next gen NORMAL spec, that without knowing what the heck the player does on its side.
There are too many interdependent variables that each can go wrong along the chain.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

True, but when BD came out, most if not all TVs could do 100% of REC.709 and had a precise gamma of 2.2, no roomplay there, just a hard standard.

Today we need "UHD Premium" as a goal for TV manufacturers to reach the next gen NORMAL spec, that without knowing what the heck the player does on its side.
There are too many interdependent variables that each can go wrong along the chain.

Sure, having specs themselves set in stone is essential, but did every previous SDR TV hit 100% of 709 and a precise gamma of 2.2 out of the box? Hell no. And even after calibration some sets still had serious flaws, so in that respect the UHDA certification program won't be a panacea to ensure a perfect picture first time which is the point I'm trying to make. That's a whole 'nuther ball game.

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That's a whole 'nuther ball game.

Not to mention that ST.2094 which defines Dynamic Metadata and should come to HDMI 2.1 in the next couple of months or a year...
More like pissed in the snow than set in a stone.

Lets hope the industry leaned a thing or two and the dust settles quickly.

[jaaguir]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I think you missed the bit you quoted where I mentioned it's going into an SDR 4K TV in my case, which should answer your question above.

Sorry. Indeed.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I honestly can't see the ridges on his right bicep (screen left as we look at it) in the UHD but they're right there on the BD. And yet other details on his suit are slightly better defined in UHD, like the mission badge, so if the HDR is supposed to make the missing ridges 'pop' then why is this other detail better and not worse?

I do see them, barely. Yes, screen left. I only thought HDR could make the ridges pop up again because unlike other details you mention, the ridges are mostly defined by the shadow each bulge makes, so maybe a contrast adjustment by HDR would strengthen the shadows and show the ridges again (just my hare-brained logic).

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Still, these are early days for the format and the encoding can only get better.

I think it's remarkable the way you keep your optimism about this whole thing in face of the challenges.

Originally Posted by Blu-21

I see what you mean about the control panel, but I was focusing on the hand. The BD has more grain/noise which looks like it carries more detail.

I think the BD has the contrast somewhat boosted up, and that's why the wrinkles in the hand show more. I think the BD looks uglier, but that's just my take.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by jaaguir

I think it's remarkable the way you keep your optimism about this whole thing in face of the challenges.

Challenges, that's one way of putting it. But Blu-ray came on in leaps and bounds from its early years (having also adopted newer codecs which took time to settle down) and it still leaves me staring wide-eyed in wonder because it looks so gorgeous, so if UHD can floor people out of the gate then lord only knows how good it could get in a few years' time. And, as with the DNR menace on early Blu-ray, it could well be that the HDR goldrush (there be nits in them thar hills!) settles down into something that's employed in a more conscientious and respectful way in the years to come.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

I highly doubt that a commercial product like a TV uses professional 3DLut to map DCI-P3 that the player sends to its own capabilities.

You'd be surprised. Panasonic have been using 3D LUTs in their premium range of TVs for a couple of years, although the LUTs are more for internal remapping than outward user tweakery, if you take my meaning: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/tx55a...1411073944.htm

As for other methods of transform, the CRI (Colour Remapping Information) system outlined for HEVC uses dynamic metadata with a 1D LUT and a 3x3 colour transform to remap the image with a high degree of success pertaining to HDR to SDR conversion, but it's an optional feature for UHD Blu, not mandatory.

[freedomland]

I burried the idea of getting 4K-Discs to watch on my 1080p projector and to be prepared for a new uhd-projector with UHD-content, just for now. There are too many things that could go wrong. Why REC.2020 instead of DCI without any kind of conversion?(Bluray-authors could do a lot of things wrong.) Why HDR without correctly beeing able to deactivate it.(I want old movies like there be projected then without "colouring"(HDR) it).

This is all so mean from the studios and the industry, they are offering us things what not really exist today(rec2020). What are they think we are gonna do? Buy every month new stuff? C´mon we are not that stupid.

Yesterday I watched "all quiet on the western front", and would you like to know what I missed much? The clarity of a non DNRed and sharpened Bluray with well resolved grain like Casablancas recent transfer. When studios like Universal stops thinking featurs have to be tweaked like "pimp my ride", we start watching movies and not think about if its a Bluray or a UHD.
I think 4K could be good opportunity for filmlike images, but if the industry and studios wants to much milk from us and make us changing gears like pants, then it could be SACD-trash.

[Coenskubrick]

Screenshots have no better detail than the blu-ray, and often have more apparent digital noise. Shameful really.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Coenskubrick

Screenshots have no better detail than the blu-ray, and often have more apparent digital noise. Shameful really.

There's no way of getting screen grabs from UHD Blu-ray as of yet.

Screen shots are pointless since you cannot reproduce the HDR image even remotely close to the actual thing with a cell phone camera.

[David M]

Originally Posted by Coenskubrick

Screenshots have no better detail than the blu-ray, and often have more apparent digital noise. Shameful really.

Can you link me to the specific screenshots? Thanks in advance!

[Coenskubrick]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

There's no way of getting screen grabs from UHD Blu-ray as of yet.

Screen shots are pointless since you cannot reproduce the HDR image even remotely close to the actual thing with a cell phone camera.

I was referring to the screen grabs of the Martian posted only a few pages back.

[pawel86ck]

BD
http://hdtvpolska.com/MEGATEST/samsu...otofinal/3.jpg

UHD
http://hdtvpolska.com/MEGATEST/samsu...otofinal/4.jpg

Amazing difference (look at this tablecloth)


And here's more comparisons in this samsung UHD player review
http://hdtvpolska.com/topic/37166-na...azenia-opinie/

[Geoff D]

Look how harshly clipped the highlights are in the BD shot! That ain't right.

[pawel86ck]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Look how harshly clipped the highlights are in the BD shot! That ain't right.

http://hdtvpolska.com/MEGATEST/samsu...otofinal/1.jpg
http://hdtvpolska.com/MEGATEST/samsu...otofinal/2.jpg
Here's another highlights comparison

I didnt watched smurfs 2, but in mad max BD entire sun is missing for sure :P. It looks like HDR can make more difference to picture quality, than resolution factor alone.

And BTW- tv was calibrated, and this tech guy who did this comparison wrote, that in person these difference in highlights are even more visible.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by pawel86ck

http://hdtvpolska.com/MEGATEST/samsu...otofinal/1.jpg
http://hdtvpolska.com/MEGATEST/samsu...otofinal/2.jpg
Here's another highlights comparison

And BTW, I didnt watched smurfs 2, but in mad max BD entire sun is missing for sure :P. It looks like HDR can make more difference to picture quality, than resolution factor alone.

Yes of course, the higher luminosity range allows for better resolving of light-based detail. That's where this extra detail comes from. Detail that should be visible but is washed away by SDR is suddenly revealed. BTW, this extra detail also reveals itself on 4K SDR TV with a decent nits capacity (or 'extended dynamic range' on the Sony TVs) and/or SDR TVs with a wider color gamut than rec 709. The only difference is that the colors are usually remapped wrong.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by pawel86ck

http://hdtvpolska.com/MEGATEST/samsu...otofinal/1.jpg
http://hdtvpolska.com/MEGATEST/samsu...otofinal/2.jpg
Here's another highlights comparison

I didnt watched smurfs 2, but in mad max BD entire sun is missing for sure :P. It looks like HDR can make more difference to picture quality, than resolution factor alone.

And BTW- tv was calibrated, and this tech guy who did this comparison wrote, that in person these difference in highlights are even more visible.

Still not convinced mate, the hard clipped highlights in that Smurfs BD shot are horrible. If that's how the actual BD is playing back and isn't just the camera playing tricks then that's completely wrong, here's a properly sourced cap from the same scene on standard BD which looks nothing like the photo in question: https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/scree...61&position=18

As for the sun in Mad Max, that's not simply the BD clipping it out because it's rubbish, it's been purposely graded that way. The colour differences in HDR also point to the movie having been given something of a different feel to the SDR grade.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Yes of course, the higher luminosity range allows for better resolving of light-based detail. That's where this extra detail comes from. Detail that should be visible but is washed away by SDR is suddenly revealed. BTW, this extra detail also reveals itself on 4K SDR TV with a decent nits capacity (or 'extended dynamic range' on the Sony TVs) and/or SDR TVs with a wider color gamut than rec 709. The only difference is that the colors are usually remapped wrong.

That's what I'm hoping for Brucie, though the Panasonic's got a good shot at being a better remapper than the Samsung re: colour gamut, especially if those HDTVTest photos are anything to go by. Yes, Mad Max is different in many of them but I think that's because it's got a very different grade, period.

It'll be funny if I can still see the sun in that Mad Max shot even with the SDR downconversion, which would further my opinion above the UHD iteration: it's not just about expanding the highs and lows but actually has some noticeably different 'creative decisions' which will still translate into SDR.

[Penton-Man]

Bruce say something...no bathroom breaks allowed for you.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That's what I'm hoping for Brucie, though the Panasonic's got a good shot at being a better remapper than the Samsung re: colour gamut, especially if those HDTVTest photos are anything to go by. Yes, Mad Max is different in many of them but I think that's because it's got a very different grade, period.

It'll be funny if I can still see the sun in that Mad Max shot even with the SDR downconversion, which would further my opinion above the UHD iteration: it's not just about expanding the highs and lows but actually has some noticeably different 'creative decisions' which will still translate into SDR.

Yeah I'd like to check out that sun in SDR mode too. Guess I could do a two way comparison on my SDR TV and then on the HDR TV in SDR mode. Is there a time stamp on that scene?

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Bruce say something...no bathroom breaks allowed for you.

lol, yeah this HDR stuff is really interesting to me!