4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

I also attended the CEDIA convention in Dallas last week....The LG OLED displays made a FAR FAR bigger impression for me. Absolutely stunning dynamic range without any gimmicks at all. They absolutely trounced any HDR demos I saw on the floor.

you didn’t get a chance to see/compare, or they didn’t have any side-by-side demos from LG of SDR/HDR content on side-by-side oled monitors like so from Sony at the past NAB? ……
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post10898209

[sonicyogurt]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

did he utilize a superior QoE (quality of experience) image analysis methodology (sequential auditorium peeking) than you did?

Do you think HDR may be a tough sell for consumers in general if some sort of "image analysis methodology" is required to appreciate it? (Not asking this in a snarky, argumentative way, as a 4K OLED with HDR support is very much on my must-have list.)

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sonicyogurt

Do you think HDR may be a tough sell for consumers in general if some sort of "image analysis methodology" is required to appreciate it? (Not asking this in a snarky, argumentative way, as a 4K OLED with HDR support is very much on my must-have list.)

good to hear
FWIW, i worded that 'methodology' response to be as neutral as possible to thee eyes and memories of the respective viewers (Scott and Kris)

but to answer your question directly as to whether it be a ‘tough sell to consumers in general’, i think it will depend upon exactly what content is displayed in retailer show rooms .,,,and/or, for movie fans looking or needing a new TV, how well current (or, if they struggle, then future) LG oled’s processing handles mapping down Hollywood HDR material, which is mastered at much higher luminances than I suspect the LG HDR specific content was, as described by this 9500 reviewer (Forbes) who seemed perplexed over the variance in oled HDR content image quality ….https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...5ef9500+forbes

in the end, be it with the HDR10 or Dolby vision metatdata approaches, it all comes down to transforming (mapping down) that full range high luminance mastering signal into the best possible output on the target TV

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

The front projection stuff made a minimal difference at best, especially in the movie clips they used.

Looks like I will keep using my Sony VW600 for at least another year.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sonicyogurt

Do you think HDR may be a tough sell for consumers in general....

and once 4K HDR tv sales begin to underperform or don’t reach the expectations of executives from consumer television manufacturers, one can expect the industry to take a more serious and urgent look at bringing HFR



to the general populace. HFR should be a relatively easier sell too…compared to only spatial (4K) rez. I don’t mean to be dismissive of the ‘4K’ movement because for one, I am a 4K advocate and secondly, I understand that consumer electronics companies live for/depend upon year-to-year sales to make everything work on their end and honestly, no fault to marketing folk……for engineers, 4K has been the far easier to build and bring to market than the other enhancements (WCG, HDR, HFR) .

But the BIG plan has always been to sell 4K and then augment it with enhancements as they became available. After HDR, HFR will be the next visual augmentation to the uhd home experience (esp. with soccer, basketball, football and other sports driving it)….eventually, in about 4 years or so when new hfr decoder chips are developed by the chip companies and the lighting aspect for cameras to capture hfr becomes more refined.

Until then, range on …..

INTX 2015-Matthew Goldman - YouTube

(Matt is currently serving as Executive Vice President on the SMPTE Board of Governors)

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

and once 4K HDR tv sales begin to underperform or don’t reach the expectations of executives from consumer television manufacturers, one can expect the industry to take a more serious and urgent look at bringing HFR

Are you trying to clear the forum out Penton or start a war, you know no one around here likes HFR

Which is a shame really because it's about the only next generation feature that's as standard across pretty much any TV/Projector.

HFR still stand for High Frame Rate right?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by bailey1987

Are you trying to clear the forum out Penton or start a war, you know no one around here likes HFR.....

hah, actually i more likely depressed some readers by indicating that in the quest for displaying the perfect picture at home, there is no foreseeable end for hobbyists to the TV/projector upgrade process, especially if you use your TV to watch content other than solely movies all the time.

it’s a no-brainer that HFR will show a pleasurable, improved quality of experience to *factual content* (sports, documentaries, on location news, etc.) where the motion of the imagery is pretty much anything greater than talking heads, e.g. https://vimeo.com/74564139 (note: cameras have improved since that BBC interview from that past IBC)

as, far as movies (feature films) go, i too am a traditionalist, so i side with those who prefer (at least thru years and years of visual conditioning) the 24fps *dreamy* look because it instantly transports me into the escapism of the movie world….which hfr, at least for me, hinders and for which I think brought about many of the negative reactions by audiences to the 3D 48fps version of the last two Hobbit films.

although….

there are a tiny handful of folks in the industry who remain passionate about hfr for movies and are pursuing advanced methods to make the imagery more friendly to traditional cinephiles, one of which methods involves shooting at HFR (120fps in this case) and incrementally adjusting shutter angles on the HFR footage between 72º and 360º, and to perform realtime frame blending, like so (download this video demo of variable motion blurring (~ 218 MB) to see dee drummer in action. https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/c...er/drummer.mov )

just bring me HFR with non-cinematic content before i kick the bucket and I’ll be quite satisfied with my purchase of a ‘2020’ TV.

[bailey1987]

I have mentioned before my idea for HFR, my idea was to allow variable speeds for select scenes and also to allow filmmakers to select areas of the screen to use higher speeds instead of the entire frame being sped up.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by bailey1987

I have mentioned before my idea for HFR, my idea was to allow variable speeds for select scenes and also to allow filmmakers to select areas of the screen to use higher speeds instead of the entire frame being sped up.

you go bails

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

for profile definition of ^ see p.145 in the pdf of this download...
http://www.uvcentral.com/sites/defau...Format-2_1.pdf

so, technologically inquiring minds might ask (while not watching Arsenal stun Bayern in Champions League )……what be next on thee HDR (open) standards highway?……..

well, by providing a means for assigning a dynamic brightness dimension to the rendering of colors by TVs, there is a group working on an adaptation of the metadata instruction set used in Dolby Vision in order to bring full HDR fidelity (as Dolby envisions it) with10-bit as well as 12-bit sampling systems

[jeff_rigby]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

so, technologically inquiring minds might ask (while not watching Arsenal stun Bayern in Champions League )……what be next on thee HDR (open) standards highway?……..

well, by providing a means for assigning a dynamic brightness dimension to the rendering of colors by TVs, there is a group working on an adaptation of the metadata instruction set used in Dolby Vision in order to bring full HDR fidelity (as Dolby envisions it) with10-bit as well as 12-bit sampling systems

Just confirming for HDR & HFR; for the player if it has a TEE of sufficient power also supporting HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2 multi-stream (HDMI delivered like Miracast over the home network), the HDMI chip if separate then just needs to have programmable output clocks to support the higher bandwidth of HDR (High dynamic range) and HFR (high frame rate).

One of the 2014 proposals was down converting both resolution and HDR, again a TEE of sufficient power and a programable clock for the HDMI. Then we have the digital bridge proposals also seen in that PDF. Are these proposals part of the UHD Blu-ray delay from the end of 2015 to the beginning of 2016 or is it the FCC Downloadable Security security scheme (FCC requirement for a Cable Card expires Jan 2016) impacting the delay to support the "One Media Hub with all home Media" as mentioned by the Fox president....an echo of statements from Microsoft and Sony about their Game Consoles and mentioned by a Forbes article for their designs. Sony for VR and the Morpheus VR headset is stating it supports 120 HZ with one 1080P video frame split into two separate screens @ 960 x 1080 so the framerate is there and I home the bandwidth too for HFR UHD Blu-ray.

I would think the scheme you mentioned to convert HDR for multiple TVs would be firmware after a standard is developed for the TV to tell the player what it can support. They just need to have a SoC TEE that can support the proposals and as you expanded on that with multiple TVs that support various levels of HDR.

So High end Players could be firmware updated to support new standards coming with new media but the UHD TVs not so much.

Edit: FYI AMD's Carrizo UHD6 only needs to be on 1/3 of the time the Karveri UVD4 needs to decode HEVC. (UVD= Universal Video Decoder using Xtensa processors which are also used in some Blu-ray players, TVs, XB1 and PS4. Why the overkill with the UHD6? HDR and HFR support?

[ZIROK]

Well, not "everyone". I happen to like the look of HFR. and really don't care for the almost century old 24p Protocol . Really do not enjoy watching the picture on the screen stutter when the Camera pans. Agree variable would be nice.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bailey1987

I have mentioned before my idea for HFR, my idea was to allow variable speeds for select scenes and also to allow filmmakers to select areas of the screen to use higher speeds instead of the entire frame being sped up.

James Cameron's already said he'd like to use such a thing with the new Avatars. Even he doesn't dig what HFR does to the 'movie look' and fully realises that it makes certain things seem so hyper real and fake that it really pulls you out of the movie, so he proposed using HFR for action scenes (to cut down on strobing etc in 3D) and something nearer normal 24fps for dialogue stuff.

No, I'm not making it up: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post10501329

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Yeah, HFR is a catch-22.

Like Zirok, I would prefer not to see obvious screen stutter, but I would still want it to otherwise have that traditional "film look" (just minus the stutter).

But it seems like as soon as additional frames are added into the mix, you get more of a video or soap-opera look. I hope they can find a happy medium.

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Yeah, HFR is a catch-22.

Like Zirok, I would prefer not to see obvious screen stutter, but I would still want it to otherwise have that traditional "film look" (just minus the stutter).

But it seems like as soon as additional frames are added into the mix, you get more of a video or soap-opera look. I hope they can find a happy medium.

I've never seen Todd-AO footage. I wonder what The Sound of Music looks like at 30fps?

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by singhcr

I've never seen Todd-AO footage. I wonder what The Sound of Music looks like at 30fps?

SofM was shot when Todd-AO had reverted back to using 24 fps frame rates due to the prohibitive cost of needing extra large-format film stock and having to shoot the movie twice (once at 65mm 30 fps and once in anamorphic 35mm 24 fps like Oklahoma! and Around the World in 80 Days).

Oklahoma! was released using the 1080 60i (60 fields interlaced) format on Blu-ray using the restored Todd-A0 30 fps source material (with a good de-interlacer you could get a quasi-30 fps progressive signal frame doubled to 60 Hz).

On UHD Blu-ray it could be properly presented at 2160p at 30 fps.

[Geoff D]

As long as it's encoded akin to PsF (each progressive frame split into two segments, instead of each interlaced field representing its own individual moving part of the signal) then it's fairly easy for even a half-decent player to recombine the progressive 30p signal, which is then output as frame doubled 60p (or 50p in the case of 25fps sources) as you say.

But as for 30p specifically, that's not included in the UHD BD specs at all. There's 23.976p, 24p, 25p, 50p, 59.94p, 60p, but no 30p which I guess was just too niche of a frame rate (same goes for 48p too).

[dvdmike]

Both the H's are the same old desperation move to get people back into cinemas.
Nothing changes

[MisterXDTV]

The final nail in the coffin for UHD Blu-ray

http://www.siliconera.com/2015/10/23...ra-hd-blu-ray/

“The Blu-ray disc drive that is currently installed in the PS4 is made exclusively for the Blu-ray disc player, so it cannot read the 3-layer media that is standardized by Ultra HD Blu-ray,” says Ito. “For this reason, the PlayStation 4 models that are out in the market cannot be compatible with Ultra HD Blu-ray.”
Read more at http://www.siliconera.com/2015/10/23...38PCFLRUoY2.99

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

The final nail in the coffin for UHD Blu-ray

http://www.siliconera.com/2015/10/23...ra-hd-blu-ray/

Final nail? We knew this on ps4 launch day