Superman: The Movie 4K UHD (1978)

[KC-Technerd]

Originally Posted by Ben_UK

Are we absolutely certain that the upcoming 4K release is simply just a repackage but minus the 70mm audio option?

With the release of the box set being over a month away, I would not say it's completely certain yet.

[Dr. T]

I'm certain. People here have received a new disc from Amazon that has the exact same specs as the new packaging. The disc defaulted to the Atmos track and had a DTS-HD MA 2.0 track.

[KC-Technerd]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

I spoke to the audio engineer/producer who mixed video releases 2 decades ago, bringing up this point of why make the directional into mono center and was told the reason was most people had Stereos with speakers not far apart and small TVs (27" was big back then! ) with speakers on them or at their sides so there wouldn't be much separation anyway. (So it'd be moot).

I countered "Then more reason to! Even if the speakers are so close at least you'd get every little bit of stereo separation with that. And people that have their front stereo speakers set wider would get the full original effect."

Was told people might not like that because the TVs would have all the action in the center (the screen) with the sounds coming far left and right.

I highly suspect that the directional dialog was never included in the 35mm Dolby Stereo mix, as it likely would have been problematic in the days before Pro-Logic II decoding, and certainly before Pro-Logic. The less centered (perfectly balanced between the 2 matrixes channels) the dialog, the more it would bleed into the surrounds on playback, whether in theater or at home. I'm not sure it would even have the full desired effects of precision on-screen source location and smooth panning across the screen with Pro-Logic II applied. I don't know of any attempts to utilize directional on-screen dialog with Dolby Stereo SVA. I only know of it being used with audio formats having discreet channels for multiple behind-the-screen speakers.

With fully discreet channels the issue you bring up is valid. Front speaker to screen placement in home systems rarely matches theatrical placement. Usually the L&R speakers are placed wider than the screen, which then places some of the voices that should be near the sides of the screen off the side of the screen instead. With that being said, I far, far prefer to get the original audio than to have it modified for the perceived shortcomings of the average home system. I want the shortcomings to be in what I can change (my home system) rather than in what the studio would have to change by releasing a new disc.

I think "Superman" (in the Dolby 6-track) may have been among the last of the movies to have on-screen directional dialog. I'm sure it was simpler to create one 4-track master that could be used as a source for building both the Dolby 6-track and Dolby SVA. Earlier movies using directional dialog with Todd-AO, Cinemascope, etc. didn't have to worry about creating a soundtrack version compatible with matrix encoding and decoding. I'm actually very surprised that the producers went to this trouble with "Superman."

[Deciazulado]

Well yes, I meant in the conversation with him was mostly about the 5.1 mixes coming out on DVD at the time, specially from 70mm and magScope mixes, tho some Laserdiscs preserved (or tried) the directionals too. The thing was even on 5.1 from them they were centering the spread, or on new dedicated 5.1 mixes and was frustrated about that!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by KC-Technerd

I highly suspect that the directional dialog was never included in the 35mm Dolby Stereo mix, as it likely would have been problematic in the days before Pro-Logic II decoding, and certainly before Pro-Logic. The less centered (perfectly balanced between the 2 matrixes channels) the dialog, the more it would bleed into the surrounds on playback, whether in theater or at home. I'm not sure it would even have the full desired effects of precision on-screen source location and smooth panning across the screen with Pro-Logic II applied. I don't know of any attempts to utilize directional on-screen dialog with Dolby Stereo SVA. I only know of it being used with audio formats having discreet channels for multiple behind-the-screen speakers.

With fully discreet channels the issue you bring up is valid. Front speaker to screen placement in home systems rarely matches theatrical placement. Usually the L&R speakers are placed wider than the screen, which then places some of the voices that should be near the sides of the screen off the side of the screen instead. With that being said, I far, far prefer to get the original audio than to have it modified for the perceived shortcomings of the average home system. I want the shortcomings to be in what I can change (my home system) rather than in what the studio would have to change by releasing a new disc.

I think "Superman" (in the Dolby 6-track) may have been among the last of the movies to have on-screen directional dialog. I'm sure it was simpler to create one 4-track master that could be used as a source for building both the Dolby 6-track and Dolby SVA. Earlier movies using directional dialog with Todd-AO, Cinemascope, etc. didn't have to worry about creating a soundtrack version compatible with matrix encoding and decoding. I'm actually very surprised that the producers went to this trouble with "Superman."

If you listen to the 2.0 there is definitely some vestige of the dialogue being steered across the fronts, though it’s not as crisply defined as on the 70mm mix.

[oddbox83]

I’m actually quite pleased I don’t have to buy the overpriced steelbook set and can just get the individual releases of 2-4 without feeling I’m missing out on a better version of the first.

Though it’s perverse that the extended cut is still MIA in 4K when the second movie does get both.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

I’m actually quite pleased I don’t have to buy the overpriced steelbook set and can just get the individual releases of 2-4 without feeling I’m missing out on a better version of the first.

Though it’s perverse that the extended cut is still MIA in 4K when the second movie does get both.

We really have nothing, but speculation as to what version of the theatrical cut we'll get. It's speculation.



However, not having the Donner Extended Cut in 4k is baffling.

[Deciazulado]

Even in non matrixed normal Stereo you can do great left to right. I grew up listening to The Beatles' Stereo mixes doing crazy panning (and other well recorded Stereo/audiophile records having great imaging and separation), then I "discovered" you could do the Hafler circuit to get them to "surround" you more like in a horseshoe, and decorrelators, etc. till we got multi on Laserdiscs and DVDs and proper receivers.

[punisher]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

Even in non matrixed normal Stereo you can do great left to right. I grew up listening to The Beatles' Stereo mixes doing crazy panning (and other well recorded Stereo/audiophile records having great imaging and separation), then I "discovered" you could do the Hafler circuit to get them to "surround" you more like in a horseshoe, and decorrelators, etc. till we got multi on Laserdiscs and DVDs and proper receivers.

Being For The Benefit Of Mr. Kite! (Remastered 2009) - YouTube

[BorisKarloffice]

Revisiting this film is such a treat. Obviously my first time viewing it in 4K, but also the first time I've seen it in any format in the time I've had an actual audio setup and not just TV speakers or a soundbar. As you can tell by my sig, I don't exactly have the cream of the crop when it comes to gear, but it gets the job done.

It's funny. I definitely appreciate this film more now than when I was a kid. I'm a child of the early 2000s, so my bar for superhero entertainment was set by Singer's X-men, Raimi's Spider-man, and Nolan's Batman Begins. At the time I first rented STM, around the time Superman Returns was new, I thought it was a bit of a slog. Now I wish more movies would slow the hell down and let their stories breathe like this one does!

But even as a kid, I remember being fascinated by the opening credit sequence. I had seen things similar before but in much newer films. I knew what CGI was and I had an understanding that it wasn't in use, at least not on that level, when this movie was made. I remember playing it back over and over while I had the rental wondering how they had made such a cool sequence without a computer.

Even now knowing a lot more than I did then about how optical effects work, it's still a mindblowing sequence. I'll never understand what the deal is with the little kid telling you about the Daily Planet, but as soon as those blue letters swoosh towards you, all is forgiven.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

I’m actually quite pleased I don’t have to buy the overpriced steelbook set and can just get the individual releases of 2-4 without feeling I’m missing out on a better version of the first.

Though it’s perverse that the extended cut is still MIA in 4K when the second movie does get both.

How is $130 for 4 steelbooks, an outer box, an art book and some swag overpriced? In the US at least warner charges $25 for a standard release and $32 for a regular steelbook on release.

[Dr. T]

Originally Posted by Ruined

How is $130 for 4 steelbooks, an outer box, an art book and some swag overpriced?

Have you looked inside?

[BorisKarloffice]

Originally Posted by Dr. T

Have you looked inside?

Impossible, it's lined with lead

[KC-Technerd]

Originally Posted by BorisKarloffice

I'll never understand what the deal is with the little kid telling you about the Daily Planet, but as soon as those blue letters swoosh towards you, all is forgiven.

I've always considered it an acknowledgement (a nod, and a fairly obvious one) to the past of "Superman," particularly the comic book origin (the Action Comics which the kid is reading from), without revealing Superman or saying the name, which is then being left behind with the transition past the moon and into the swooshing titles, indicating that what's coming isn't the same old Superman that people had experienced prior to 1978. John Williams' score helps convey this as well. It also helps establish a time frame for the events on Krypton. I think it makes a great introduction for the movie.

[captainsolo]

The child reading is to remind the audience of the core foundation of the nature of the character whether they know the history or not. On one hand it serves the same purpose as the opening page first section corner of a Golden Age comic, the blurb of a pulp magazine, the intro of a radio show or the intro of a serial chapter. The only one that really tried to do this again afterwards was the 1996 Phantom film with the origin recap and classic usage of “For those who came in late”.

On the other hand because it is a child’s voice it speaks to the universal quality of Superman. It’s never explained or heavy handed which may make people scratch their heads a bit but it’s very subtly getting at the appeal and resonance of myth in hearts and minds.

As said above it also serves to prepare the audience to be transported into something far beyond the realm of the comic pages. Everything falls away into nothingness and suddenly we are in the void of space much like a planetarium style ride.

Or maybe I can just theorize way too much about the simplistic yet staggering beauty of this opening.

[BorisKarloffice]

Originally Posted by KC-Technerd

I've always considered it an acknowledgement (a nod, and a fairly obvious one) to the past of "Superman," particularly the comic book origin (the Action Comics which the kid is reading from), without revealing Superman or saying the name, and the transition from that to the swooshing title sequence indicates you are about to experience something new and exciting that's way beyond what people had experienced of Superman prior to 1978. John William's score helps convey this as well. I think it makes a great introduction for the movie.

To be clear I love the visuals and the way they pay tribute to the comics and older B&W films, which were how audiences had known Superman before.

It's the narration that's always felt odd to me. It's all about the Daily Planet specifically, which doesn't factor into the movie for another 45 minutes or so, and is more of a plot device than a major part of the movie's themes.

I get why the Planet building is the main landmark we see on Earth before we zip across space to Krypton, because it's an iconic location that instantly screams we're in Superman's world now, not our own. But just the visual is enough I think. The narration really doubles down on the Daily Planet thing, and then...forget that place, it's all about Krypton for the next 20 minutes.

It's a minor thing that, like I said, I pretty much forget about once the actual credits swoop in. The sequence is lovely but I'd prefer it without the narration specifically, that's all.

[captainsolo]

There isn’t a specific date when dialog panning stopped but once the roadshow release style died out and Dolby became the cinema standard it went away super fast. Some mixers and designers must’ve liked it because it will still pop up occasionally after 1980 but rarely-it’s a pleasant surprise to suddenly go “hey, there’s a little dialogue panning!” Once you hit the digital sound era it’s pretty much gone entirely.
Dolby didn’t like it because it didn’t always play nice with matrixed audio. And when the lock is lost or the mix was badly done you get all kinds of dialog bleed.

It lasted a bit longer on 70mm release mixes but Dolby also had taken over that field so it died out pretty quickly. Most see it as a “negative” or “gimmicky” even to this day when it used to be used in only the most prestigious big releases. What makes it harder to research is the sad fact that many classic films have had it removed on video or restorations or the track was lost or damaged beyond repair. In a lot of cases you usually only have one of several film mixes originally done that has survived.
Even 2001 has a little bit of directional dialogue on the original mix.

What I didn’t know for a long time until the late Disclord did his incredible research into Sensurround was that it was really this process that first stressed not having directional dialog because it would interfere with the system. I think this may have started putting that idea in people’s heads.

The best example of panning I’ve yet experienced and the biggest single improvement on the new releases is found on Spartacus. The newest BD and UHD for the first time used the full panning mix for theaters. When it was restored they made a home mix narrowed in and that was used in various forms for years.

[Jay Mammoth]

Opening is perfect, I love it.

[oddbox83]

Originally Posted by Ruined

How is $130 for 4 steelbooks, an outer box, an art book and some swag overpriced? In the US at least warner charges $25 for a standard release and $32 for a regular steelbook on release.

Because it costs more to buy the box set than the individuals, and all you get for that cash is packaging and tat.

A 5th steelbook featuring nothing but tat is something I just don't understand - that should have been Returns, Supergirl or even just a BD bonus disc. Something disc.

The difference is even more pronounced in the UK - £20 each for the films in 4K - 1st even cheaper at £15 on Amazon currently if one still needed it, or £130 for the steelbook box set. That's a huge markup! £55 extra for steelbook packaging and tat. That's what you call overpriced for no real bonus extras.

Opinions may vary.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by captainsolo

There isn’t a specific date when dialog panning stopped but once the roadshow release style died out and Dolby became the cinema standard it went away super fast. Some mixers and designers must’ve liked it because it will still pop up occasionally after 1980 but rarely-it’s a pleasant surprise to suddenly go “hey, there’s a little dialogue panning!” Once you hit the digital sound era it’s pretty much gone entirely.
Dolby didn’t like it because it didn’t always play nice with matrixed audio. And when the lock is lost or the mix was badly done you get all kinds of dialog bleed.

It lasted a bit longer on 70mm release mixes but Dolby also had taken over that field so it died out pretty quickly. Most see it as a “negative” or “gimmicky” even to this day when it used to be used in only the most prestigious big releases. What makes it harder to research is the sad fact that many classic films have had it removed on video or restorations or the track was lost or damaged beyond repair. In a lot of cases you usually only have one of several film mixes originally done that has survived.
Even 2001 has a little bit of directional dialogue on the original mix.

What I didn’t know for a long time until the late Disclord did his incredible research into Sensurround was that it was really this process that first stressed not having directional dialog because it would interfere with the system. I think this may have started putting that idea in people’s heads.

The best example of panning I’ve yet experienced and the biggest single improvement on the new releases is found on Spartacus. The newest BD and UHD for the first time used the full panning mix for theaters. When it was restored they made a home mix narrowed in and that was used in various forms for years.

There's quite a bit of directional dialogue on 2001's OG mix. On the modern 5.1 it's more restrained.