Rambo 4K UHD (2008)

[Geoff D]

Oh yeah, this is a tasty UHD to compare. I hate to use such a cliché but the SDR converted caps at capsaholic really don't tell the whole story. Yes, I'm the first one to use them to point out things that prove what I'm saying, granted, but that usually applies to aspects like detail, sharpening, black level, things that aren't going to be adversely affected by a competent SDR conversion either way. But when it comes to fully appreciating HDR then converted caps just aren't the be all and end all.

What am I saying then, that Rambo's HDR presentation is transformed compared to what we can see in the caps? Not quite, but colour volume can take a fair hit when being SDR converted and I firmly believe that's the case here with how drab the 4K version(s) look in the ripped SDR converted captures. I'll follow that up with, like, words and stuff but there will also be picatures at the end! And the SDR version of the Extended Cut complicates this further as it's got some markedly different timing in several scenes compared to both the UHD and the theatrical SDR Blu.

Speaking of the Extended Cut, it does indeed appear that they've edited it together using the new filmout transfer of the theatrical and the existing digital segments of the added footage. Why wouldn't they just upscale the Extended master and be done with it? If I had to guess I'd say that the newer cut was completed in a home-video-centric space rather than the same DCI theatrical spec as the original cut, with its higher bit depth and wider gamut. What I mean is that even in the SDR Blu-ray of the Extended I can see how badly the bright spots start to clip, looking a bit rough and posterised, whereas the SDR theatrical transfer is still clipped but it rolls off more naturally. There just isn't a huge amount of range there in the Extended digital master to exploit for an HDR remaster so perhaps they decided to use the more HDR-friendly filmout transfer for the bulk of it and then cut in what was needed, massaging it into place as best they could.

For sheer outright detail then the filmout transfer is undoubtedly softer than the previous BD versions as we already know, and yet the added splodge of coarser grain (this may yet be an IP printed from the filmout, I'm quite sure I spotted a dark vertical scratch in one shot) still seems to give the UHD more texture, but not more resolution of course. Two things can help here: first is that if you're watching on a 65" postage stamp like me and not a hahn-sized monster then the difference when viewed in motion from a normal seating distance isn't as great as it may seem; second is that Rambo's cinematography isn't exactly laying claim to Lawrence of Arabia's crown in terms of sharpness and detail as it is, which I say with all due respect to all the filmmakers involved in Sly's movie. Wider shots can seem like they're starting to lose acuity in the UHD presentation, but for the most part I just didn't feel like I was looking at an offensively Oblivion'ed presentation.

With that in mind then the transitions between the two sets of footage detail-wise weren't as jarring as I'd feared. If anything the transitions still stand out more on the Extended Blu-ray as the added material has been sharpened a wee bit, it looks noisier and grainier, whereas they've reduced that sharpening a tad for the Extended UHD, presumably so that it blends better with the already-softened filmout transfer. It still looks noisier on UHD than the filmout material but having the sharpening reigned in is a help. Colour-wise there are still discrepancies between the theatrical and Extended footage in UHD, the latter can looks a bit pinkier in the skin tones while the former retains that dryer, warmer hue (though on the UHD it's not as one-note as it is on the SDR versions) , but I have to say it honestly didn't bug me as much as it did for other posters on here. Some of the other timing irregularities, like the close-in shot of Rambo walking down the lane at the end when it cuts to the overhead, are right there on the theatrical SDR disc so some of it is source-related anyway.

As for the overall colour the UHD often has a lusher, greenier vibe than the aforementioned warmer hue of the SDR version, it's purely a matter of taste as to what people will prefer and I honestly don't mind either version. The warmer look has a bit of a humid Apocalypse Now kinda feel yet the greenier version works too for all the jungle foliage and whatnot. Skin tones are more nuanced on the UHD than on the Blu-ray editions, what's curious is that the Extended Blu-ray looks deader than even the theatrical Blu-ray, skin tones really do look pale and flat on the former. Bigger timing alterations present themselves too, for while the UHD and the theatrical Blu-ray have a bluer tint for the establishing shots of the army camp at night, the Extended Blu-ray loses the blue completely! Basically the Extended Blu-ray is its own separate retiming of the film while the Extended UHD is closer than not to the theatrical Blu-ray in several respects. Confused yet?

Alas, I must now talk about HDR so anyone with a sensitive disposition to the H word had better grab their children and leave the room, lest their earballs be exposed to such filthy language. Are they gone? Good. Right, yeah, there's a nice expansion to the range on the UHD. NOT that this is suddenly some ultra-bright revision to the film, far from it. If anything I'd say that the SDR version viewed at 140 nits peak has a brighter APL than the HDR transfer does, the latter is more restrained with brightness but offers up a solid extension into the hotter areas of the image, particularly when they're on the water.

As I alluded to near the top of this slab of text, the highlights (oh no, I said it!) in the added footage can still look posterised and 'hot' even in Dobly playback but it brings back just enough range to be able to intercut with the theatrical footage well enough in terms of range. Not perfectly, but it's passable enough for a few seconds at time (though a full HDR version of the Extended master would've been borderline unwatchable IMO). Black levels have been darkened a bit for the UHD, not by some drastic DisneyCrush™ style amount but it thickens up what is a slightly grey-looking low end on the SDR.

Despite the two versions having their own separate encodes they've still got very respectable compression, and watching in Dobly as I did should add its own gloss to the encoding as the Full Enhancement Layer is combined with the HDR10 base layer. Lionsgate have given it a decent digital clean-up too, unlike some of their other filmout transfers I could mention. I dare say it's actually cleaner now than the original dirt removal pass done for the DI.

Photo time! THEY ARE NOT INTENDED TO FULLY CONVEY THE ENTIRETY OF EITHER SDR OR HDR IMAGES BUT ONLY SPECIFIC ASPECTS, THEY CAN ALSO BE MUCH DARKER THAN THE IMAGE ACTUALLY APPEARS OWING TO THE EXPOSURE NECESSARY TO CAPTURE THE RANGE.


Rambo forging his propeller shaft. Extended BD is much cooler in tone while the Extended UHD is yellowy-green. Same yellowy tinge for the Sony theatrical BD (not shown).

Extended BD

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Extended UHD

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A couple of examples of Darla on the boat. Extended Blu-ray vs Extended UHD, latter has that fuller greenier tinge but note it doesn't corrupt the whole image, skin tones have more zest.

Extended BD

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Extended UHD

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Extended BD

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Extended UHD

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Darla again, I really hate how 'dead' the Extended Blu-ray looks throughout this sequence, even compared to the theatrical Blu-ray, although the UHD is better again. I've also thrown in a shot of the Sony theatrical BD. (The two shots compared above ^ aren't in the theatrical version.)

Extended BD

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Theatrical BD

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EC UHD

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Leaving Rambo behind, the UHD resolves a decent amount of highlight information here while the BD is very bright and blown out.

Theatrical BD

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Theatrical UHD

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Rambo on the boat after he's killed the pirates ("You're not saving anything"). The camera is oversaturating the blue colour here in both cases but in relative terms you can see how the Extended BD has a cooler look (not just here but in the whole scene) while the Extended UHD goes with a balanced look.

Extended BD

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Extended UHD

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Wide shot of Rambo going back to torch the pirate boat. Extended BD is much less saturated while the Extended UHD is far more verdant, and the Sony theatrical BD is even greener still! Who needs HDR revisionism when we've got some right here in good old fashioned SDR? (Not exact frames.)

Extended BD

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Theatrical BD

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Extended UHD

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Mercs on the boat. UHD does its thing with the dynamic range of the background, again the colour is also 'fuller' vs the Extended BD and skin tones are less yellowy.

Extended BD

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Extended UHD

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Another one, this time of the theatrical UHD vs the theatrical BD. Nothing dramatic but a nicely resolved amount of extra range and colour in the background which adds depth. Not the exact same frame, doesn't matter.

Theatrical BD

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Theatrical UHD

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The army camp. The UHD and theatrical BD aren't THAT blue in actuality but there's still a hugely obvious difference between them and the EC BD for this shot. Framing is different on the theatrical because it's a non-moving shot in that edition, on the Extended Cut a slight zoom-in effect was added.

Theatrical BD

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Extended BD

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Extended UHD

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[DaylightsEnd]

Originally Posted by DR Herbert West

The added grain and softness makes it feel more like an 80's action film

The new Lionsgate 4k UHD edition of Rambo 4: The Fight Continues...$17.96.

Lionsgate epically fumbling the opportunity to reintroduce in ultra hi def the most aggressively stylized and graphically brutal Rambo feature in the franchise's history, to such an extent that their cutting-edge new hdr graded 4k disc appears prematurely aged by a good 15 or 20 years to resemble aging Beverly Hills Cop filmstock, and further swathed in an olive drab haze to conceal a counterintuitive 10% reduction in fine detail in the filmout transfer process....PRICELESS.

Ok so maybe I'm funning a bit....

And after comparing the various presentations directly, the intense Cundey blues of the 1080p theatrical's night scenes had me literally waiting for the Fog to come get Rambo......They HAD to fix that on the 4k!

[mackguyver]

Originally Posted by mackguyver

Amazon wouldn't let me cancel and finally shipped...but not 2 day...it won't be here until Monday...so much for Prime and pre-ordering...

PS - Amazon's customer service seems to hit rock-bottom...2 reps didn't even understand my issue.

[stigdu]

Great review as always Geoff, cheers.

I watched the theatrical version last night and thought it looked excellent. I then flicked through the extended cut and immediately noticed how the colour timing was different in some scenes. The worst offending scenes were when the lads were on the boat approaching the camp.

In the theatrical version, the colour of the water changes from blue back to green depending on the camera angle. The extended cut looks more natural.

The explosion with the claymore looks equally awful in both versions.

[Markgway]

I hate situations like this where the resultant bag is mixed. I like it when one version is clearly better than the other. I've gotten over my aversion to upscales (I bought four from Amazon.it recently) but those were all cases where the UHD was better - or at the very least not worse - than the BD. M:I3, M:I - Rogue Nation, Jack Reacher, The Purge - Anarchy and The Bourne Legacy -- all reportedly improvements over their BD counterparts (thanks to HDR, compression, etc). BUT... RAMBO!? Aarrgh! Better grain, but less sharp. Better contrast, but darker. Better colour range, but duller tones... and two different cuts with different flaws/virtues. It's my worst nightmare! Do I give up my Sony BD of the TC and take a risk? I'm leaning toward 'no'. And it's nothing to do with price. Even if this were currently $7.99 (coming soon to a Black Friday sale near you) I'd have the same reservations. I'm always complaining about modern films being too dull, too drab, and too dark. Sounds like the UHD crosses all three boxes. I have to pass, don't I? Maybe Sony will do us all a favour and put out a spanking new master in time for Xmas...

[StrayButler91]

It is a shame that the extended cut was ostensibly assembled using the compressed dupes, probably locked at 1080p resolution. Guess it was a cost thing at the time. And now it's an even bigger shame that Lionsgate wasn't willing to splash out a little more to preserve the EC in 4K.

Ah well, my pre-order is still en route.

[ROSS.T.G.]

The extra detail in the clouds and more balanced skin tones is enough for me. Hope mine comes today so I can watch tomorrow.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Markgway

I hate situations like this where the resultant bag is mixed. I like it when one version is clearly better than the other. I've gotten over my aversion to upscales (I bought four from Amazon.it recently) but those were all cases where the UHD was better - or at the very least not worse - than the BD. M:I3, M:I - Rogue Nation, Jack Reacher, The Purge - Anarchy and The Bourne Legacy -- all reportedly improvements over their BD counterparts (thanks to HDR, compression, etc). BUT... RAMBO!? Aarrgh! Better grain, but less sharp. Better contrast, but darker. Better colour range, but duller tones... and two different cuts with different flaws/virtues. It's my worst nightmare! Do I give up my Sony BD of the TC and take a risk? I'm leaning toward 'no'. And it's nothing to do with price. Even if this were currently $7.99 (coming soon to a Black Friday sale near you) I'd have the same reservations. I'm always complaining about modern films being too dull, too drab, and too dark. Sounds like the UHD crosses all three boxes. I have to pass, don't I? Maybe Sony will do us all a favour and put out a spanking new master in time for Xmas...

It really doesn't look "too" much of any of those three to my eyes, but then that will also depend on our taste, our gear and how it's been set up. The theatrical BD is still rather good though, it's more consistent visually than either the BD or UHD of the Extended Cut and the warm, blown out look still suits the material.

But I already mentioned that I got a tenner back from selling my existing Extended BD against the £14 spent on the UHD, I just sold the digital code for almost a fiver so now I'm ahead on the deal, it hasn't cost me anything so I'm happy with that. And why does the theatrical BD have to be "given up" at all? I put mine in with the UHD in a three disc case.

[DaylightsEnd]

Originally Posted by geoff d

the theatrical bd is still rather good though, it's more consistent visually than either the bd or uhd of the extended cut and the warm, blown out look still suits the material.

And why does the theatrical bd have to be "given up" at all? I put mine in with the uhd in a three disc case. :d

this

[Marsellus74]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Edit

Great post, but if you compare the TC on both discs, what's the verdict then? I for one don't care much about the EC.

[Markgway]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It really doesn't look "too" much of any of those three to my eyes, but then that will also depend on our taste, our gear and how it's been set up. The theatrical BD is still rather good though, it's more consistent visually than either the BD or UHD of the Extended Cut and the warm, blown out look still suits the material.

It was more based on comments from other posters. I could be wrong, but it sounds like the kind of thing that - if true - would bother me. That's why I opted for Sony's DNR'd, but bright 'n' white Cliffhanger over the dull teal of Studio Canal. My standards have lowered a bit when it comes to double dipping on UHD. Had this been the same as my current BD but with better compression that might have been enough for me to "upgrade". I don't expect miracles. But when the look is changed so much and has proven so controversial among those who already have it, I tend to back off. Never say never though.

But I already mentioned that I got a tenner back from selling my existing Extended BD against the £14 spent on the UHD, I just sold the digital code for almost a fiver so now I'm ahead on the deal, it hasn't cost me anything so I'm happy with that. And why does the theatrical BD have to be "given up" at all? I put mine in with the UHD in a three disc case.

Don't think anyone'll give me a tenner for my Sony BD.

Oh, and I resolve to only own one edition of every film. No exceptions.

[Geoff D]

Only one edition, even though you're a mad keen HK film fan? How queer.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Marsellus74

Great post, but if you compare the TC on both discs, what's the verdict then? I for one don't care much about the EC.

Good question. If people are happy with their theatrical BD and don't give a fig for clouds and skies and are totally secure with their equipment choice that they have to keep mentioning over and over and over again then the UHD isn't going to be blowing their skirts up.

This ain't no slam dunk but a sidegrade, so go with what you like.

[Markgway]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Only one edition, even though you're a mad keen HK film fan? How queer.

The new and improved Markgway is going to leave that bait alone.

Not sure what you mean though about being a HK film fan. I am, but what's that got to do with my policy?

[Geoff D]

There've been so many crappy and/or alternative versions of those movies over the years, people have got entire collections that amass this dub and that cut and this music and that transfer. Now I can see why you're always wringing your hands over getting into 4K in general.

[Markgway]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

There've been so many crappy and/or alternative versions of those movies over the years, people have got entire collections that amass this dub and that cut and this music and that transfer. Now I can see why you're always wringing your hands over getting into 4K in general.

Well, whenever I buy a new disc I sell the previous one. I can only ever watch one version/edition of a film, so I choose the best one. Even if that means making customs. I'm not really "a collector" like many on here. I'm just a film fan with a nice collection.

[Geoff D]

Fair enough sir.

[DaylightsEnd]

Originally Posted by Markgway

I resolve to only own one edition of every film. No exceptions.

Hence, in strict application of this policy, you may be automatically, categorically and summarily excluded from owning the Rambo 4k disc at all, right out of the gate. Both editions of the film are inextricably encoded onto just one singular 4k disc, making it quite literally impossible to own just one edition of the film.

Meanwhile, some that have been shafted by amazon may like to know that Rambo 4k AND Casino 4k just popped up in a local walmart here.....If you're feeling left out and your goods are not going to ship for several more days, try your local big box retailer....

[StingingVelvet]

I definitely get not wanting to watch a different cut if you very much prefer another. I feel that way about The Wolverine for example, I wouldn't upgrade to UHD if it meant watching the (IMO) neutered theatrical. I don't think that's weird at all.

However luckily I prefer the theatrical in 95% of cases.

[MattGuyOR]

Originally Posted by brainofj72

I tried watching the extended cut last night. I absolutely loved the added character scenes; at least one classic Sly monologue was cut from the TC. His performance feels deeper and more poignant now, and the character and his internal conflict are much fuller and more realized.

That said, I simply cannot accept how much he toned down the violence. He seriously took it from a 10 to like a 6 or a 7. In the 40 minutes or so I watched, all of the most memorable, shocking moments of brutality that make this movie so impactful were gone. I just couldn’t keep going with it in that form; it wasn’t the same film.

Wish like hell there were a composite cut that added in the character stuff but left the violence untouched.

Thanks! Theatrical it is. I had heard it was brutal and had no idea the extended was LESS so...no thanks.