"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Penton-Man]

Sounds to me like it’s pretty unanimous that you guys want to deep-six D59.
From a consumer standpoint, does anyone find any value in them at all…..compared to the conventional alternative of two separate discs?

I get the impression that GGX wouldn’t even care to use them as a Frisbee.

[blindcat87]

Hi Penton,

I see absolutely no value in them whatsoever. Even if all of the potential technical issues like rot and such are removed, I find the concept annoying. In addition to having to be careful not to smudge both sides of a disc, as someone who can't read the print on the center ring, I find the potential for mixing up sides to be less than appealing. I don't know how many times over the years I have put in a DVD-18 disc or a movie with fullscreen and widescreen versions on opposite sides of a disc and found myself getting the wrong episodes or the fullscreen version and having to start all over again, muttering under my breath the whole time. It is a small frustration, but one I would rather do without.

On a completely unrelated subject, except that it is something to do with packaging and presentation that I do see value in. How about more steelbooks for us US Blu-ray fans, and not just single retailer exclusives? I know Sony hasn't been really into these compared to some studios, but I have the Crouching Tiger UK version coming and I would have pounced on a US version in a second. Is there some reason like costs or belief that US consumers are not into such things keeping studios from offering these? Anyway, after you mentioned that some issues never make it to your attention unless posted here, I thought it couldn't hurt to ask.

Chris

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sounds to me like it’s pretty unanimous that you guys want to deep-six D59.
From a consumer standpoint, does anyone find any value in them at all…..compared to the conventional alternative of two separate discs?

I get the impression that GGX wouldn’t even care to use them as a Frisbee.

[JimSD]

Originally Posted by blindcat87

Hi Penton,

I see absolutely no value in them whatsoever. Even if all of the potential technical issues like rot and such are removed, I find the concept annoying. In addition to having to be careful not to smudge both sides of a disc, as someone who can't read the print on the center ring, I find the potential for mixing up sides to be less than appealing. I don't know how many times over the years I have put in a DVD-18 disc or a movie with fullscreen and widescreen versions on opposite sides of a disc and found myself getting the wrong episodes or the fullscreen version and having to start all over again, muttering under my breath the whole time. It is a small frustration, but one I would rather do without.

You're not the only one to do that. If I have a 50/50 chance of getting the correct side facing up I'll get it wrong 90% of the time.

[Sponge-worthy]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sounds to me like it’s pretty unanimous that you guys want to deep-six D59.
From a consumer standpoint, does anyone find any value in them at all…..compared to the conventional alternative of two separate discs?

I get the impression that GGX wouldn’t even care to use them as a Frisbee.

I can see how on paper they may have promise, but I have to think they will lead to customer confusion more than anything else. I know retail employees often have a tough enough task trying to educate shoppers as to the differences between BRD and DVD, especially how DVD will work on a BRD player but not the other way around. To me it seems sensical to continue distinguishing the technologies rather than mushing them together.

[phansson]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sounds to me like it’s pretty unanimous that you guys want to deep-six D59.
From a consumer standpoint, does anyone find any value in them at all…..compared to the conventional alternative of two separate discs?

I get the impression that GGX wouldn’t even care to use them as a Frisbee.

Hey Penton,

Since we are seeing the price of Blu Ray players approaching that "magic" $100 price point, why don't the studios just ditch DVD's?

[neo_reloaded]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sounds to me like it’s pretty unanimous that you guys want to deep-six D59.
From a consumer standpoint, does anyone find any value in them at all…..compared to the conventional alternative of two separate discs?

I get the impression that GGX wouldn’t even care to use them as a Frisbee.

From my own perspective as a consumer, I see absolutely zero value in BD-59 as compared to two separate discs. Two separate discs give me the exact same content, in a more aesthetically pleasing physical package, without any handling issues, and with much less chance of defect.

In all honesty, I'm fine with JUST the BD disc - I don't need the second DVD disc in any form. But at least with that I can see SOME value, and can understand why others might value it more. BD-59 offers no value whatsoever - I'd argue that it actually constitutes at least slightly LESS value considering the higher chance for defect (judging on historical data for DVD and HD DVD flippers).

[wallendo]

Sounds to me like it’s pretty unanimous that you guys want to deep-six D59.
From a consumer standpoint, does anyone find any value in them at all…..compared to the conventional alternative of two separate discs?

I have no problems, IF the disks work as advertised. I assume that, unlike BD-18, the BD-59 would have a different appearance on each side (blu on one and DVD on the other - I find it easy to tell the difference.

Unlike many on this board, the only picture I care about is the one on the screen ... not the one on the box, and definitely not the one on the disk. I don't see any great advantage of it ... I would rather have a separate DVD copy as I really don't want my blu-ray disks laying around in the car. The combo disk, however, would allow unlimited digital copies (to those who do not care about the DMCA).

I wonder if there would be as much opposition to these disks if it at one time hadn't been a "HD-DVD exclusive".

Conclusion, I would buy these disks, but they don't really offer a lot of advantages to me.

[Mr. Cinema]

A BD only release is my preference. However, if a DVD version is also included, I'd rather it be on its own disc and not glued to my BD.

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Months is more like it, to see if they suffer from rot. DVD-18s had 2 seperate issues, the initial ones that rotted between the error check at pressing and your player, and the ones that slow rotted and died inside a year

Yes the Indiana LD plant was infamous for rotting discs. Aliens Director's cut, tons of Criterions are all dead now because of it.

True!

I certainly hope that these combos/flippers Universal is planning to introduce are rejected by the consumers. Back in the days of SDVD, the Warner flippers, for example, generated so much negative talk on the Internet, we really do not need go through the same thing again. And, yes, I understand perfectly that the idea with Universal's combos is slightly different.

If any studio wishes to future-proof their releases, add a separate DVD, a flyer, etc.

Pro-B

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sounds to me like it’s pretty unanimous that you guys want to deep-six D59.
From a consumer standpoint, does anyone find any value in them at all…..compared to the conventional alternative of two separate discs?

.

Not me.

Shelf space is not an issue.
Inspecting the disc with a microscope to determine which side up is an issue.
Handling the disc carefully becomes an issue.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

o.k., payback Peter –
Hey, when’s your wife gonna come and visit me again, huh?
I taught her all those nasty little tricks you like.

The ex? Ehhhh, you can have her!

Too bad I heard Elisha Cuthbert likes camels...

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I’m told that the screenshot scientists are/were beating up on Gremlins and one of your *holding the mirror up to their ‘scientific’ faces* posts was deleted.
I need specifics. What are they b*tching about now in the land of perpetual disillusionment?

This thread may be the one you're talking about:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1183827&page=7

I hope I was able to help get it under control.

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Bobby H., one of these Gold Class Cinemas just opened up in Pasadena.
I like it.
http://goldclasscinemas.com/Cinemas/...-Locations.htm

Very nice. Hopefully Village Roadshow will open a Gold Class Cinemas location in some cities I visit more often (Oklahoma City, Dallas-Fort Worth, Tulsa, Colorado Springs, Denver).

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sounds to me like it’s pretty unanimous that you guys want to deep-six D59.
From a consumer standpoint, does anyone find any value in them at all…..compared to the conventional alternative of two separate discs?

I don't. The only advantage at all (if there is one at all) is having one disc, but that doesn't benefit the consumer at all, only the distributor if he can stomach the higher replication cost and defect rate.

BD59 just seems suspect. How can the studios guarantee reliability of these discs? I've had ordinary DVD9 discs develop "rot" after a couple or so years. If the glue bonding layer can break down in a normal DVD then chances of it happening in a double sided double layered disc are only much greater. Who wants to cross fingers hoping the disc will work when played?

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sounds to me like it’s pretty unanimous that you guys want to deep-six D59.
From a consumer standpoint, does anyone find any value in them at all…..compared to the conventional alternative of two separate discs?

I think the same list of usual reasons can be derived from the previous discussion regarding such discs during the HD DVD combo days.

Pro:

* One SKU
Studios like simplifying their inventory, and this would certainly help along those lines. Retailers also would love to only carry one SKU, assuming the public backlash over having to buy things they can't use doesn't land on their shoulders.

* No "unusable disc" returns
Hand in hand with having one SKU is the fact that a dual disc isn't likely to be returned by the consumer for being unusable; during the format war, we saw a lot of stories of people buying Blu-ray and (especially) HD DVD discs thinking their "HD DVD player" would play them - and every time you rented a Blu-ray from Blockbuster they'd ask if you were sure you had a Blu-ray player. I don't know how big of an issue this is these days, but it's certainly something to consider until Blu-ray reaches a ubiquitous level of mindshare.

* Tempt non-Blu-ray owners into joining the fold
I'm not sure I'm convinced that having a disc on your shelf that you've already watched for the DVD side will prompt you to be curious enough about the other side to buy a Blu-ray player, but I won't discount the concept that there may be some people out there who are OCD enough to do just that.

* For those that do migrate to Blu-ray, they can avoid the double dip.
This is a mild plus for the consumer, and a mild negative for the studio, though a higher price premium on the BD-59 package would obviously blunt or completely negate some of this effect, and it also fleeces the people who have no intention of upgrading.

* A/B comparison.
For the more narcissistic people, you could pop in the DVD side of a disc to show someone, then flip it over and wow them with the Blu-ray side. I guess. Or you could, I dunno, just show them the Blu-ray and be done with it.

Cons:

* No disc art
Ugly discs make it less of a joy to own a movie. Sure there's the packaging, but still... And heaven help you if you own more than one and have a stack of ones outside the box - you're going to have to stare at the inside ring printing to figure out which ones go where. I know most early adopters are fanatical about keeping their collection in order, but most people aren't so organized.

* Fingerprint magnets
This is especially true for households with kids. Some people have well behaved kids and family who know not to touch the "shiny side". This is a much harder lesson to drill into people when both sides of the disc are shiny...

* Flip this/flip that
I mentioned before that getting people to stick the right side of a disc into the slot can be fraught with danger, and this is still true.

* Higher failure rate
See my earlier commentary about what might happen if someone gets stuck with a faulty disc that doesn't get detected until they buy a Blu-ray player further on down the line.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

You're only assuming there would be widespread selling of bonus DVDs from Blu-ray combo packages. I don't think there would be much, if any, in that regard. Not many people are going to want to bother with that nonsense. I have many other far better things to do with my time than trying to find buyers for the bonus DVDs that came in a few BD packages. This falls into the "who gives a ****" category.

I am not assuming anything, will it be wide spread or not, it is not important, like pirating, studios see it as losing $ and so it is bad, no one knows how much it is or will be. You asked why a studio would prefer BD59 over BD50+DVD9 and I posted what I see as the biggest one, especially since you are assuming it is not cost (since you also think BD would cost more)

[Blu Titan]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

True!

I certainly hope that these combos/flippers Universal is planning to introduce are rejected by the consumers. Back in the days of SDVD, the Warner flippers, for example, generated so much negative talk on the Internet, we really do not need go through the same thing again. And, yes, I understand perfectly that the idea with Universal's combos is slightly different.

If any studio wishes to future-proof their releases, add a separate DVD, a flyer, etc.

Pro-B

What Pro-B just posted! No wonder you are my favorite reviewer.

[coolmilo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sounds to me like it’s pretty unanimous that you guys want to deep-six D59.
From a consumer standpoint, does anyone find any value in them at all…..compared to the conventional alternative of two separate discs?

I get the impression that GGX wouldn’t even care to use them as a Frisbee.

Hi Penton,

All I really care about is the Blu-ray disk and not the accompanying DVD or the digital thing. I was fine with the fact that “The Way of the Gun” included a single Blu-ray disk only.

Why can't the BDA step in and stop the BD-59 from happening? The BDA should create a rule that mandates movies must be put on BD-25 and BD-50 only? They can update the policy later if BD-75 and BD-100 are introduced. It just seems to me that Blu-ray does not need another setback.

One thing I am wondering…I understand that BD-59 products will cost more than separate DVD and BD disc bundles. Further, there will be no individual DVD or Blu-ray products for sale when BD-59 discs are used. Does this mean that Uni expects DVD only customers to buy BD-59 products at a premium? It seems like such a bad idea.

[Hep]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sounds to me like it’s pretty unanimous that you guys want to deep-six D59.
From a consumer standpoint, does anyone find any value in them at all…..compared to the conventional alternative of two separate discs?

I have one major issue with them...my Sony BD mega-changer would eat them like crackers. I'm assuming the discs will be slightly thicker than a regular BD just like the DVD flippers were; this is a known issue with previous flipper/combo discs, and I refuse to jam my player's mechanism with a fatty flipper.

Flippers negate the security of letting the kids loose on the included DVD version.

I think the other concerns are also valid, so to answer your question, no I don't see any upside for the consumer.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

This thread may be the one you're talking about:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1183827&page=7

I hope I was able to help get it under control.

I went back to read the previous page there in order to get a handle on the *tone* of the thread before the apparent *selective deletions* took place.
Seems to me that the recent bull-shite all started around here? with the “oink”–
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=168

I think “oink” took your words literally and I don’t believe that any insiders were “scared” anyway from *science*, more like left in total disgust for the place, the latest on the list being Cliff –
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ff#post2546218

With whom you are all free to now welcome here …………..
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=122638

But to the cinematic point of interest, it appears that this latest posting nonsense is based on the total recall of the theatrical viewing of a motion picture from 25 years ago by the same guy (oink) who claimed that something was wrong with The Godfather……i.e. he said something to the effect that the colors were *off* or it was dnr-ed? Isn’t he the same guy that was bashing RAH’s work on that project?

Fact of the matter is that John Hora purposely shot Gremlins “soft”….....the main concern being to protect the integrity of the mogwais (bad gremlins) as they were essentially puppets and human operated! The rest of the non-mogwais footage had to obviously blend as seamlessly as possible with the scenes with the mogwais so the whole dang thing is “soft”!

John normally avoided ever using zoom lenses and also preferred to shoot everything in prime but, with this particular motion picture at least half of it was shot with Cooke zooms (soft) and anything that wasn’t was made soft, for instance, by using fog filters on the nighttime snow sequences or spreading MT2 or 85 gel over the back lamps with mineral-oil smoke in the opening sequence of the movie, etc., etc.

Like Cliff, I am still dumbfounded by the practice of the administration over there in promoting the spread of disinformation and misinformation by not getting a rein on these known repeat *offenders with an opinion*.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Too bad I heard Elisha Cuthbert likes camels...

Well, I know she loves ice hockey and that she fairly recently had a birthday but, the camel thing is news to me.
Hmm, I may have to change my position concerning the beasts.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Hep

...I think the other concerns are also valid, so to answer your question, no I don't see any upside for the consumer.

God help me if SPHE ever embraced BD59’s in the same fashion as Uni, or me thinks you guys would all keelhaul me if I showed up here again.

And just to add insult to injury, Peter THX would probably save my remains to feed to the camels rather than the sharks.