"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Icemage]

Wouldn't this be akin to what HD-DVD did with combo format DVD/HD discs? Those didn't do so great, either, as I recall. Relatively high failure rate (anyone else remember those amusing threads where people were doing silly things like washing their HD-DVD combo discs in warm soapy water to "fix" them?), and I don't know if Toshiba ever let slip anything about what the "true" failure rate is on discs that failed QC in the first place.

Horrible idea either way. So many down sides, few upsides. Higher failure rate, no disc art, increased cost.

I know the intent is to draw more people into Blu-ray, but putting defective product on someone's shelf isn't going to do much to foster more adoption. I know I would be very unhappy if I bought a combo disc before getting a BD player, then putting the disc in only to find that the disc will not play (perhaps months down the road after buying the disc). This last issue where someone might not know that they have defective product until quite a span of time has elapsed is probably the biggest headache in this fiasco of an idea, IMO, since they won't be able to take the product back to the retail channel for an immediate replacement of a defective disc.

And of course you've got the usual flipper issues of people being too stupid to breathe and putting the wrong side in (I can just imagine someone not paying attention, sticking the DVD side of a combo disc into their shiny new Blu-ray player and going "what, it doesn't look any better!").

I think a better solution would be for a studio to take the plunge and simply make the Blu-ray version of a disc available earlier than the DVD version by a week or so as a test bed.

[Bobby Henderson]

What exactly does Universal expect to save in making a single SKU flipper disc?

I don't know the replication costs for BDs and DVDs, but I'd be willing to bet the replication cost of a BD59 is significantly higher per unit than the combined cost of two separate BD50 and DVD9 discs.

This cost difference for BD59 is probably higher than any extra costs associated with 2-disc BD cases versus single disc cases, slight differences in sleeve and paper board slip case designs and slight differences in shipping costs.

The only thing I can figure is Universal sees BD59 as a way to get more money out of the hardly profitable at all DVD side of things while hoping Blu-ray fans will snap up these BD59 discs.

I don't think the strategy is going to work. The strategy certainly won't for for catalog titles like the Bourne movies where numerous previous DVD editions are already is existence and commonly available in Wal-Mart bargain bins. People still content with DVD will just spend $5 to $10 for the DVD-only bargain version. Blu-ray customers are more knowledgeable about the pitfalls of flipper discs.

Finally, there's no over-repeating the obvious advantages of having two separate BD and DVD discs in one case. Customers recognize the value. It makes the premium we pay for Blu-ray more palatable.

[Mr. Cinema]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

Though it's doubtful I'd ever use it, I do like having a DVD version... I just want it to be a second disc.

For those movies aimed at families/kids, I think it's a great selling point. For other movies ("Angels And Demons", "District 9"), I think it's of lesser importance.

~Alan

Yes. For family films, it makes complete sense. I also don't mind if the dvd is thrown in.

However, the best way to get customers to transition to BD is the new lower pricing. When consumers walk into Best Buy or Walmart and see that Star Trek on BD is $19.99 and the DVD version is only a few dollars lower, they should be thinking of just going ahead and buying a player, which we all know are getting cheaper. Since player pricing is a one-time cost, I don't think that is the issue with possible new BD owners. It's the software. Now that new titles FINALLY have dropped to the $19.99 sweet spot, it should be a much easier sell in their mind on whether or not to upgrade.

Best Buy's new ad should help alot. Harry Potter BD is $17.99, only $2 more than the standard DVD and $5 lower than the 2-disc DVD. That should get people's attention.

[Jeff Kleist]

What exactly does Universal expect to save in making a single SKU flipper disc?

I don't know the replication costs for BDs and DVDs, but I'd be willing to bet the replication cost of a BD59 is significantly higher per unit than the combined cost of two separate BD50 and DVD9 discs.

This cost difference for BD59 is probably higher than any extra costs associated with 2-disc BD cases versus single disc cases, slight differences in sleeve and paper board slip case designs and slight differences in shipping costs.

The only thing I can figure is Universal sees BD59 as a way to get more money out of the hardly profitable at all DVD side of things while hoping Blu-ray fans will snap up these BD59 discs.

Universal has always been very hot on disc reduction and reducing units. It fits with their MO. The idea of shipping one disc for DVD and Blu is very attractive to them, and I think they still think that they can get the higher SRP, and viral Blu-ray into people's homes (I already have all these discs, might as well go Blu idea).

The putting the DVD in the box thing works because people typically only have one Blu-ray player, and want the option of playing it other places. The Snow White thing worked because people don't read the box and it was the only disc out there a month early

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

What exactly does Universal expect to save in making a single SKU flipper disc?

I don't know the replication costs for BDs and DVDs, but I'd be willing to bet the replication cost of a BD59 is significantly higher per unit than the combined cost of two separate BD50 and DVD9 discs.

This cost difference for BD59 is probably higher than any extra costs associated with 2-disc BD cases versus single disc cases, slight differences in sleeve and paper board slip case designs and slight differences in shipping costs.

I would guess even if it is higher (I don't think it would be) a BD59 would not be that much higher. Just think of how bad the good rate would need to be for it to be equal. If it was that bad, my guess no one would make them.

But to answer the question, I think it is obvious. Let me ask you this. What stops some one who bought a BD (which came with a separate DVD) from giving the DVD to a friend or a family member or even selling it on e-bay or something? How about a rental place who now for the price of the BD have a DVD as well?

[Jeff Kleist]

Rental places would not be offered the 2packs for rental. They source those discs seperately. Ifthey were caught violating that, they'd be in deep doodoo

You wouldn't see new release titles in a 2 in the box configuration like that for mainstream non-family movies. They want to save money shipping stocking and storing 2 seperate sales units

Less SKUs+same sales=more $$

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

But to answer the question, I think it is obvious. Let me ask you this. What stops some one who bought a BD (which came with a separate DVD) from giving the DVD to a friend or a family member or even selling it on e-bay or something?

What stops some one? They paid for the package while their friend did not. I own a few BD titles which included copies of the movie on DVD in the same case. I haven't and don't ever plan on giving away the extra DVD to someone else.

I'll loan friends movies from time to time, but I'm not giving any of my discs away to them (unless they want to buy them from me). DVDs by themselves are cheap.

I'm a little surprised some people go through the trouble of downloading copies of DVDs from the Internet. It takes a significant amount of time to download that data and then burn it to disc (and there's no telling if the data is actually error free either). My time is more valuable to me than that. On that standpoint, it's cheaper for me (and lots of people) to just buy the DVD. But I don't buy DVDs anymore. Just Blu-ray.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Rental places would not be offered the 2packs for rental. They source those discs seperately. Ifthey were caught violating that, they'd be in deep doodoo

that would most likely be true for the large rental chains who have profit-sharing agreements, I don't know if it is the same where you live but here you also have small independent stores as well as practically every corner store (which is usually cheaper but only has 1 copy of the movie the owner decided to buy to watch)

[Jeff Kleist]

The indy video store is essentially dead in the states. We have one local arthouse centric video store that appears to be surviving, otherwise it's all Blockbuster and Hollywood. They have 2-3 locations, and there's another indy video store that I don't know if it's still in business down in the rainbow district that caters to the GLBT crowd.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

What stops some one? They paid for the package while their friend did not. I own a few BD titles which included copies of the movie on DVD in the same case. I haven't and don't ever plan on giving away the extra DVD to someone else.

I'll loan friends movies from time to time, but I'm not giving any of my discs away to them (unless they want to buy them from me). DVDs by themselves are cheap.

you might not, and I might not, but that is because we do not want to for what ever reason, but there is nothing stopping us if we wanted to. And there is nothing stopping anyone else. You don't think some people will do it?

As for DVD prices and them being cheap, you are missing the point, they are not that cheap and some people don't care. I paid 20$ for UP BD, the UP DVD is 18$ on Amazon, if I did not mind ruining the set, I could sell it for 10$ and we both would be winners (I would have paid 1/2 price for the BD -20$-10$=10$) and the other guy would have paid less then the 18$ for the DVD) even if it was not 10$ but 5$ there is still a financial benefit to both parties. Even if it was a token 1$, the same thing again, the guy that bought thye BD and will never use the DVD gets a discount (of what he charged for the DVD) on his BD purchase and the guy that bought the spare DVD does not pay full retail for it and has the DVD.

But if it is free or paid for but at a discounted price, it is immaterial, if two people share a purchase (one ends up with the BD and the other the DVD then to the studio that is a potential loss. That is my point.

[Bobby Henderson]

DVDs are cheap compared to the hourly wage of many people. If I need to spend more than 20-30 minutes farting around with trying to grab a DVD image off the Internet I've already lost money compared to buying the full priced DVD version at the store.

You're only assuming there would be widespread selling of bonus DVDs from Blu-ray combo packages. I don't think there would be much, if any, in that regard. Not many people are going to want to bother with that nonsense. I have many other far better things to do with my time than trying to find buyers for the bonus DVDs that came in a few BD packages. This falls into the "who gives a ****" category.

As it stands, after market DVDs carry very little value. I've tried selling some of the DVDs I no longer watch from my collection with people wanting to pay zero or not much above that. Free, illegal downloads from the Internet has killed much of the resell business for used DVDs even if they're brand new from a BD combo package.

[downward]

BD59 is a more difficult disc to make due to working with 0.6 mm substrates for the BD side versus a 1.1 thickness for a standard BD. Trying to bond the BD 0.6mm and then the DVD 0.6 adds a new challenge because of the hardcoat on the BD side.....this is different than a standard DVD18 process.

Movie studios want it to reduce the #s of SKUs and discs, Stores would be receptive to it because of reduced shelf space needed so they could stock more movies.

Consumers will be confused with this disc as all of the previous reasons mentioned.

Doesn't anyone remember Warner's Total HD disc ? HD DVD on one side and BD on the other? Anyone remember how this worked out? yeah....never happened .

My prediction is BD59 will not take off...I may be wrong


downward

[Bobby Henderson]

I seem to remember seeing a couple of "Total HD" discs on store shelves, such as Superman Returns. But hardly anything else.

It seems like every flipper combo disc format released this decade has had problems of one sort or another. HD-DVD/DVD combo discs were plagued with replication problems. Same for TotalHD. The DualDisc music format (CD layer on one side, DVD-V or DVD-A on the other) has disappeared as far as I know. I read stories about DualDisc CDs shattering in certain CD and DVD players because the disc was slightly thicker.

Didn't the SACD format have certain releases that featured a CD layer bonded on the other side of the disc?

I just don't think the extra replication costs of BD59 are worth it. If a movie studio like Universal wants to ship a single SKU movie release on home video I think they would be much better off shipping a 2 disc set with a BD50 and DVD9 in the same case. The 2-disc BD cases don't really take up any more shelf space than the single disc cases.

[Jeff Kleist]

There were packaging and laboratory samples of Superman Returns TotalHD shown at a few trade shows

No discs were ever commercially produced, because they couldn't get it to work.

I just don't think the extra replication costs of BD59 are worth it. If a movie studio like Universal wants to ship a single SKU movie release on home video I think they would be much better off shipping a 2 disc set with a BD50 and DVD9 in the same case. The 2-disc BD cases don't really take up any more shelf space than the single disc cases.

They don't want to do that, especially on new releases. They want to press one disc, period.

The DualDisc CD/DVD combos are quite thick. I have the Weird Al one.

[SpaceDog]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

I seem to remember seeing a couple of "Total HD" discs on store shelves, such as Superman Returns. But hardly anything else.

Warners talked about TotalHD but never got around to it. By the time they were ready to start creating such discs, they'd made their announcement to support blu-ray only.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

So how many camels did you end up getting?

hah! Those camels do have looong legs but, that face.
Somehow I missed your past insult!

o.k., payback Peter –
Hey, when’s your wife gonna come and visit me again, huh?
I taught her all those nasty little tricks you like.

P.S.
Does anyone know what obscure motion picture that line (or something similar to it) is from?
The song “Tender Years” is playing in the background while on top of a high-rise in Montreal.

[Penton-Man]

Heads-up Vincent P.-
In regards to this -
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...on#post2476424

Now read this -
https://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=3848

P.S.
I’m told that the screenshot scientists are/were beating up on Gremlins and one of your *holding the mirror up to their ‘scientific’ faces* posts was deleted.
I need specifics. What are they b*tching about now in the land of perpetual disillusionment?

[Penton-Man]

Bobby H., one of these Gold Class Cinemas just opened up in Pasadena.
I like it.
http://goldclasscinemas.com/Cinemas/...-Locations.htm

[juanell]

o.k., payback Peter –
Hey, when’s your wife gonna come and visit me again, huh?
I taught her all those nasty little tricks you like.

P.S.
Does anyone know what obscure motion picture that line (or something similar to it) is from?
The song “Tender Years” is playing in the background while on top of a high-rise in Montreal.[/QUOTE]

Crash(David Cronenberg) just a guess as I haven't seen it in over 10 years.

[Jeff Kleist]

They're completely convinced there's a beautiful high resolution film hiding beneath severe mistreatment

As I recall, Vincent cited multiple 35mm screenings, including a very recent one and said the Blu-ray was equal to or better. This attempt at peer review was met with the usual "I knows what I knows" and the moderators took appropriate action to silence the infidel

Check your PMs when you get a chance Penton, I sent you something completely un Blu related