Early Blu-rays that may have playback issues (Criterion, Well Go USA, etc.)

[ShellOilJunior]

Originally Posted by Thebunk

Also I have to say that after Pro-B's super defensive response to this and the Eraserhead issue only to be proven wrong by Criterion themselves ( after many constructive, methodical posts here) makes his reviews even less credible.

I respect Pro-B for not rushing to judgment on this issue. Some in this thread were out with pitchforks earlier.

In the past when Pro-B received what looked be a faulty Darjeeling Limited screener he withheld his review until he received word from Criterion.

All in all, Criterion recognizes there's a problem and they will make good with replacements.

[timothy ramzyk]

So, like most who find this kind of distressing, I've been piling through my 2009-2010 Criterion. I found there is no doubt that my copy of M is shot.

However I found most of my Criterion disks to have a warmer cast to them, compared to other disks that were entirely unrelated, but no deeper "foxing" at the edges.

Do some disks just have a warmer cast to them than others?

I also noticed what I would call the "gas in a puddle" effect, that kind of rainbow swirling when the disk is held at a certain angle to the light. Is this also a factor of any sort?

Thanks

[cakefactory]

Originally Posted by timothy ramzyk

I also noticed what I would call the "gas in a puddle" effect, that kind of rainbow swirling when the disk is held at a certain angle to the light. Is this also a factor of any sort?

Thanks

I've noticed that on a ton of discs from all different labels, in my experience it's never meant anything at all. I've never had any blu-ray fail in any way.

[Thebunk]

Originally Posted by ShellOilJunior

I respect Pro-B for not rushing to judgment on this issue. Some in this thread were out with pitchforks earlier.

In the past when Pro-B received what looked be a faulty Darjeeling Limited screener he withheld his review until he received word from Criterion.

All in all, Criterion recognizes there's a problem and they will make good with replacements.

I stand by my statements based on his responses in this thread and the Eraserhead thread. Humility is a rare trait it seems on the Internet.

And for the record, in this case, "some" probably equated to less then 5 posters. I thought it was pretty impressive myself how people came together and started to pu the puzzle pieces together and share information (especially where Criterion was so silent to most people).

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by Thebunk

Also I have to say that after Pro-B's super defensive response to this and the Eraserhead issue only to be proven wrong by Criterion themselves ( after many constructive, methodical posts here) makes his reviews even less credible.

There was absolutely nothing defensive about my comments. If anything, the information provided by Criterion supports precisely the points I made.

1. A quick look at the Eraserhead thread should reveal immediately who was right and who was wrong. The initial statements produced there speculated that there was a glitch on the Eraserhead disc. There is no glitch -- this would mean an encoding/pressing/compression defect. There is missing information on the original negative, which was scanned by Criterion. So, the information that was scanned ended up on the disc. This specific information which I left in my first post in that thread was later on confirmed in an email sent by Criterion.

2. The points made in this thread are also very clear: there were known problematic discs, which I referred to in my post. What I addressed is the notion that discoloration automatically equates disc rot -- which is flawed. It is fairly obvious at this point that there are multiple factors that have affected playability. Many, many people in this thread, myself included, have confirmed that discs with discoloration traces are still perfectly playable.

To sum it all up, there was absolutely nothing skeptical about my comments. However, when you have a disc without visible traces of rot and with playback issues -- as a few have reported here -- the assumption that disc rot is solely responsible for playback failures is bizarre to say the least. This is in addition to the fact that a pretty big group of people were also speculating -- with one in particular also posting "fan posters" to mock them -- that Criterion have been avoiding them when the latest emails shared pretty convincingly show that they were doing the right thing -- gathering information to properly address the situation.

All in all, the rights and wrongs should be pretty obvious to see.

Pro-B

[Brian81]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

There was absolutely nothing defensive about my comments. If anything, the information provided by Criterion supports precisely the points I made.

1. A quick look at the Eraserhead thread should reveal immediately who was right and who was wrong. The initial statements produced there speculated that there was a glitch on the Eraserhead disc. There is no glitch -- this would mean an encoding/pressing/compression defect. There is missing information on the original negative, which was scanned by Criterion. So, the information that was scanned ended up on the disc. This specific information which I left in my first post in that thread was later on confirmed in an email sent by Criterion.

2. The points made in this thread are also very clear: there were known problematic discs, which I referred to in my post. What I addressed is the notion that discoloration automatically equates disc rot -- which is flawed. It is fairly obvious at this point that there are multiple factors that have affected playability. Many, many people in this thread, myself included, have confirmed that discs with discoloration traces are still perfectly playable.

To sum it all up, there was absolutely nothing skeptical about my comments. However, when you have a disc without visible traces of rot and with playback issues -- as a few have reported here -- the assumption that disc rot is solely responsible for playback failures is bizarre to say the least. This is in addition to the fact that a pretty big group of people were also speculating -- with one in particular posting also posting "fan posters" to mock them -- that Criterion have been avoiding them when the latest emails shared pretty convincingly show that they were doing the right thing -- gathering information to properly address the situation.

All in all, the rights and wrongs should be pretty obvious to see.

Pro-B

In this particular case, we know that the discoloration is due to a manufacturing defect, so yes, this particular type of discoloration as it is happening on these particular discs is NOT normal. Just because the disc works NOW does not mean it is not affected. These discs will likely deteriorate until the point they no longer function properly. It may be months, it may be years, before there are visible signs of failure, whether visual or through disc playback, and external factors may influence the rate of said deterioration. The discoloration is from OXIDATION.

[Clark Kent]

If one is looking for problems to appear during playback, look around the layer change on most movies. It won't always be in the middle of the movie but that is a fair proxy for where problems may possibly first appear during playback. Criterion BDs are almost always BD-50s with dual layers.

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by jscoggins

They're legally barred from manufacturing any more copies, period. Profit has nothing to do with it, even if they can demonstrate that they're losing money.

That may be true but I doubt we'll see physical contractual proof of that. Either way, if true, I'd like to know which studios would be against this so that I can personally boycott them on principle alone. This is a manufacturing defect beyond Criterion's or the consumers' control so any other studio which objects to a one-to-one disc replacements is being ridiculous.

Maybe Criterion needs to make sure a clause for faulty discs is added to all of their future contracts.

[jscoggins]

Originally Posted by rdodolak

Maybe Criterion needs to make sure a clause for faulty discs is added to all of their future contracts.

Yes, an "Act of God" clause is sensible.

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by Aragorn the Elfstone

Hmm, my Days of Heaven disc has the 10K* code on it, but no discoloration or problems. I bought it in October 2011, but I guess that wouldn't matter if it's got the 10K* code, right?

Not sure if I should be concerned if it's not exhibiting any issues or physical signs.

Depends on if it's a process issue or a material defect. If it's a process issue then all discs manufactured until the flawed process was corrected should theoretically be affected. If it's a material defect then the affected discs should be linked to specific batches of defective material.

[pedromvu]

The problem is that by the time this thread started many of us were already aware that this was a real problem at least with the Summer Hour discs, and we had been emailing CC from almost a month without hearing anything back, i can see how by the fast grow of this thread the reaction could seem to someone a bit exaggerated, specially since a few posts by a few users were over the top.

Anyway i have read almost the whole thread and i noticed that the number of discs without browning that have playback issues is very few.

While the number of discs with browning that have issues is very high, it probably depends on the player but from my experience my guess is that the browning blu rays will end up going bad in the long run.

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by jscoggins

Yes, an "Act of God" clause is sensible.

Well if insurance companies can use that phrase why not Criterion.

[Thebunk]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

There was absolutely nothing defensive about my comments. If anything, the information provided by Criterion supports precisely the points I made.

1. A quick look at the Eraserhead thread should reveal immediately who was right and who was wrong. The initial statements produced there speculated that there was a glitch on the Eraserhead disc. There is no glitch -- this would mean an encoding/pressing/compression defect. There is missing information on the original negative, which was scanned by Criterion. So, the information that was scanned ended up on the disc. This specific information which I left in my first post in that thread was later on confirmed in an email sent by Criterion.

2. The points made in this thread are also very clear: there were known problematic discs, which I referred to in my post. What I addressed is the notion that discoloration automatically equates disc rot -- which is flawed. It is fairly obvious at this point that there are multiple factors that have affected playability. Many, many people in this thread, myself included, have confirmed that discs with discoloration traces are still perfectly playable.

To sum it all up, there was absolutely nothing skeptical about my comments. However, when you have a disc without visible traces of rot and with playback issues -- as a few have reported here -- the assumption that disc rot is solely responsible for playback failures is bizarre to say the least. This is in addition to the fact that a pretty big group of people were also speculating -- with one in particular also posting "fan posters" to mock them -- that Criterion have been avoiding them when the latest emails shared pretty convincingly show that they were doing the right thing -- gathering information to properly address the situation.

All in all, the rights and wrongs should be pretty obvious to see.

Pro-B

Look, you can argue semantics if you want. The point is in both threads, there were issues that were brought forward by members on this forum where there was enough evidence that something appeared to not be right. As a well respected individual in this community (and one assumed to have subject matter expertise and relationships with Criterion), I was shocked by the responses you took in both threads. Instead of lending a hand in contacting Criterion as one member had asked for your help where many were not getting responses, you instead fought the good fight of "browning does not equal disc rot". And as someone else mantioned above me, your tone was a bit dismissive.

Lastly, in both threads, you did not say " wow looks like there is an issue here folks, I guess I was wrong". If I get banned for stating a non-derogatory criticism of you then so be it. I just have to say that as the exclusive Criterion reviewer on this forum, your opinion means less.

[jscoggins]

Originally Posted by pedromvu

The problem is that by the time this thread started many of us were already aware that this was a real problem at least with the Summer Hour discs, and we had been emailing CC from almost a month without hearing anything back, i can see how by the fast grow of this thread the reaction could seem to someone a bit exaggerated, specially since a few posts by a few users were over the top.

Anyway i have read almost the whole thread and i noticed that the number of discs without browning that have playback issues is very few.

While the number of discs with browning that have issues is very high, it probably depends on the player but from my experience my guess is that the browning blu rays will end up going bad in the long run.

Well, I can only think of one person who went overboard (which is odd since none of his discs are unplayable). Otherwise, I think this thread got so many reads because it wasn't limited to just Summer Hours. In short time, we established research parameters that helped us to define the scope of the problem.

If you think about it, Criterion should be thanking us.

[KILLERAVENS]

Originally Posted by Feiereisel

Scuzzy disc update: Summer Hours, and now Gomorrah.
Gomorrah is only gently ruined--it skips and freezes from about 1:03:00-1:05:00 without dropping out completely and then resumes normal playback.

Originally Posted by Brent L.

That is exactly where the main issue with my Gomorrah is. Is there a problem with that disc other than this "disc rot" issue?

My Gomorrah plays fine but (compared to all my criterion editions) the bottom side of my Gomorrah disc BR seems mildly “bubbled” (or melted looking) on the edges. I know it’s an illusion but the bubbling almost looks like I could just peel off a layer off the bottom of the disk.
I tried to post a pic but I have a s^$%*# camera. Sorry.

BTW – the disc was very clean with no brown, except the bubbling melted look.

[pedromvu]

Originally Posted by Thebunk

Look, you can argue semantics if you want. The point is in both threads, there were issues that were brought forward by members on this forum where there was enough evidence that something appeared to not be right. As a well respected individual in this community (and one assumed to have subject matter expertise and relationships with Criterion), I was shocked by the responses you took in both threads. Instead of lending a hand in contacting Criterion as one member had asked for your help where many were not getting responses, you instead fought the good fight of "browning does not equal disc rot". And as someone else mantioned above me, your tone was a bit dismissive.

Lastly, in both threads, you did not say " wow looks like there is an issue here folks, I guess I was wrong". If I get banned for stating a non-derogatory criticism of you then so be it. I just have to say that as the exclusive Criterion reviewer on this forum, your opinion means less.

I have to partly agree with this, i mean yeah, he had a point, but it didn't really added anything to this discussion, the problem was still there be it disc rot or whatever, so there was no point in arguing that.

That being said, i still enjoy Pro-B reviews, at least he always has something good to say of most films.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by cakefactory

He was rightfully skeptical, which was a nice counterbalance to the open hysteria from a lot of other people (ex the guy who didn't even have any defective discs posting things like "WE NEED TO START A CLASS ACTION SUIT AGAINST THEM BECAUSE THAT PHONE NUMBER DOESN'T WORK").

A lot of other people? You've cited one poster who was obviously trolling from the start. But who are all these other people? The majority of comments in this thread seemed pretty measured. The closest thing I noticed to 'open hysteria' was a few people saying they wouldn't be buying any Criterions until they knew what was going on.

I gotta say, as hysteria goes that seemed pretty modest.

Originally Posted by jscoggins

They're legally barred from manufacturing any more copies, period. Profit has nothing to do with it, even if they can demonstrate that they're losing money.

That's a reasonable enough assumption but I don't think any of us really know if their contracts (or contract law in general) make allowances for faulty discs. If their producer presses a thousand faulty discs and the mistake is caught before they're distributed I would think for licensing purposes those discs just never happened. For all we know other faulty discs might fall under a similar umbrella.

Whether it would be practical or cost-effective to even argue that (let alone actually do it) is another question. 'Shit happens' might be a totally reasonable position in the case of OOP discs. But I don't think we can assume replacement discs are impossible.

Originally Posted by ShellOilJunior

Some in this thread were out with pitchforks earlier.

Again, respectfully disagree. One noisy fun seeker and some fairly muted grumbling about an absence of communication aren't even salad forks by normal standards.

By internet standards this thread was practically one long 'I know you'll come back to me' love letter

[jscoggins]

Originally Posted by octagon

I gotta say, as hysteria goes that seemed pretty modest.

By internet standards this thread was practically one long 'I know you'll come back to me' love letter

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by Thebunk

Look, you can argue semantics if you want.

I am interested in facts, not semantics. But there are most definitely people here who were a lot more interested in fueling a mass hysteria than helping.

When enough information is present to address what is or isn't an issue -- as it was the case with The Ballad of Narayama -- the proper information is left on the site.

As far as Eraserhead is concerned, I left an opinion in the thread after the initial note was made, and I have not changed my opinion. The reason: the information provided by Criterion which confirms there was no technical glitch. You are entitled to have a different opinion, or ignore other opinions, but you are not entitled to have your own facts.

Originally Posted by Thebunk

The point is in both threads, there were issues that were brought forward by members on this forum where there was enough evidence that something appeared to not be right. As a well respected individual in this community (and one assumed to have subject matter expertise and relationships with Criterion), I was shocked by the responses you took in both threads. Instead of lending a hand in contacting Criterion as one member had asked for your help where many were not getting responses, you instead fought the good fight of "browning does not equal disc rot". And as someone else mantioned above me, your tone was a bit dismissive.

And this is the reason why I entered this thread in the first place. You, and quite a few other people, are operating with a lot of assumptions and treating them as facts.

I did not post anything in the thread because there was no information to be shared. It is that simple. As of today, there still isn't an official statement from Criterion detailing the situation in its entirety.

Originally Posted by Thebunk

Lastly, in both threads, you did not say " wow looks like there is an issue here folks, I guess I was wrong".

You seem to be under the impression that I have some sort of official PR responsibilities on this site when it comes to Criterion's business matters. I don't. The one and only party that should be producing official statements about Criterion's manufacturing practices is Criterion.

When Criterion have enough information and are ready to make public statements, they will do it.

Pro-B

[Brent L.]

What in the world happened to the title of this thread?

"Criterion BDs That Might Have Playback Issues"

MIGHT?

There is absolutely, positively, without a question whatsoever that there is a problem and playback issues. They even blatantly admitted it to me on the phone earlier, not to mention the endless supply of proof and first hand accounts in this very thread. This is ridiculous.

The extent of it isn't known yet, but there most certainly are issues, period.

And yes, why are posts being deleted now as well?

Nothing has been said that isn't allowed or is even any sort of trolling or flaming.