Spears & Munsil 4K UHD HDR Benchmark (Test Discs) May 15, 2023

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

Mr. Spears,

Thank you for answering this for me...

I actually own a Samsung NU8000, which only has HDR10 (and HDR10+) onboard, but are you basically saying that most displays can just have their HDR picture modes "left alone"? If so, what would be the point of the calibration disc...is it mainly for reviewers of panels and projectors?

When I view an HDR-encoded 4K Blu-ray, my Samsung automatically goes into MOVIE-HDR MODE and sets the following:

- Backlight: 50 (max)
- Brightness: 0 (middle on new Samsungs)
- Contrast: 50 (max)
- Sharpness: 0 (default in all Movie modes)
- Color: 25 (middle on new Samsungs)
- Tint: 0/0 (default)
- Digital Clean View (comes by default on AUTO, I turn it OFF for 4K playback)
- Auto Motion Plus: Custom, Blur Reduction: 10 / Judder Reduction: 5 (personal preferences)
- Local Dimming: High (default in HDR mode)
- Contrast Enhancer: Off
- Color Tone: Warm2
- White Balance: Don't touch
- Gamma ST.2084: 0 (default)
- RGB Mode: Off
- Color Space: Auto

Do these look right for "general" HDR playback without any kind of calibration?

I have been told that for HDR, you should just leave your display alone and let all tonemapping and everything else occur at a default level...but now that there are setup discs such as yours hitting the market, it seems like HDR can and should indeed be "calibrated"...

Do you have any insight here?

Grayscale and CMS are two settings that can be calibrated in HDR. Those need test patterns, a colorimeter and software.

Brightness is a perceptual setting. Meaning you set it based on ambient light conditions. A setting with the lights on will be different than the lights off. This is why you often see ISF Day and Night modes. Sharpness is also a perceptual control. Off is often not the bottom setting, so setting too low can soften the image. This is display dependent.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Grayscale and CMS are two settings that can be calibrated in HDR. Those need test patterns, a colorimeter and software.

Brightness is a perceptual setting. Meaning you set it based on ambient light conditions. A setting with the lights on will be different than the lights off. This is why you often see ISF Day and Night modes. Sharpness is also a perceptual control. Off is often not the bottom setting, so setting too low can soften the image. This is display dependent.

From what I understand, with the modern Samsungs, the "0" position of Sharpness is the one that does not introduce any oversharpening...thus often considered the "correct" one.

I agree that test patterns, at least in the past on 1080-resolution displays, enabled users to dial in exact amounts of Shaprness, for example, but from what I have gathered, these new 4K Samsungs (at least) are set ideally at zero Sharpness out of the box, which the Movie mode sets as such by default.

[sapiendut]

On the Q80, the sharpness is a tad weird. If I go down by 1 click the pattern becomes too soft, but if I leave it as is, I can see oversharpening on the pattern.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

On the Q80, the sharpness is a tad weird. If I go down by 1 click the pattern becomes too soft, but if I leave it as is, I can see oversharpening on the pattern.

What level do you have your Q80 set at Sharpness wise?

Does it come at "0" by default in its Movie or Cal Night modes?

[sapiendut]

Yes, it’s at 0 but I see a slight oversharpening whereas -1 is soft. So I just leave it at 0.

PS: not my TV, my client’s.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

Yes, it’s at 0 but I see a slight oversharpening whereas -1 is soft. So I just leave it at 0.

PS: not my TV, my client’s.

Oh, there is a way to go BELOW "0" on that QLED? On my NU8000, the "0" position is the very last position on Sharpness that can be selected...

[IntelliVolume]

As an aside, I looked at this calibration report rtings did on the Q80:

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sa...-qled/settings

It doesn't seem like the user can go BELOW "0" on Sharpness...

Unless I'm looking at the wrong model?

[sapiendut]

No no, I mean 0 as in middle level (10, I think). Not the actual 0 of the Samsung itself.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

No no, I mean 0 as in middle level (10, I think). Not the actual 0 of the Samsung itself.

Oh...then yeah, the middle of Samsung's range is around "10," as you said; it goes from like 0 to 20, if I'm not mistaken...

I was pointing out that MOST calibration reports on these new Samsungs -- and what I have found myself -- suggest leaving the Sharpness on "0," as it leaves the image "as-is" without any "oversharpening" (a result rtings found on all modern Samsungs, as well). I know in the more accurate Movie picture mode, this control is set on 0 by default.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

Oh...then yeah, the middle of Samsung's range is around "10," as you said; it goes from like 0 to 20, if I'm not mistaken...

I was pointing out that MOST calibration reports on these new Samsungs -- and what I have found myself -- suggest leaving the Sharpness on "0," as it leaves the image "as-is" without any "oversharpening" (a result rtings found on all modern Samsungs, as well). I know in the more accurate Movie picture mode, this control is set on 0 by default.

It is possible the range changed from one generation to the next. I know that the first year of the QLED the brightness control did not work like a proper brightness control. This was when I was adding autocal support for Samsung to CalMAN. I think the control changed behavior during development. I don't recall how it works now.

I do like that Samsung has the blue only mode. Allows you to verify color decoding is correct. LG had this and removed it in 2019. Hopefully it returns in 2020. Now if we can just get Sony to add the same control.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

It is possible the range changed from one generation to the next. I know that the first year of the QLED the brightness control did not work like a proper brightness control. This was when I was adding autocal support for Samsung to CalMAN. I think the control changed behavior during development. I don't recall how it works now.

You're right about these newer Samungs and their Brightness controls; from what I understand and from what I look from all the online video reviews on them, these current-generation Sammys (including the QLEDs) behave kind of non-traditionally when it comes to above-black and near-black levels being adjusted by the Brightness control...

At any rate, it seems "0" is also the all-around "correct" level for Brightness on the Samsungs (it's set there in all modes by default, if I'm not mistaken; it is definitely set to zero in Movie mode)...in fact, when I have tried playing with this control by lowering it to deal with letterbox bar blooming and some otherwise "raised" blacks, it didn't really do much of anything to bring the darker black elements down. It merely -- if my eyes didn't deceive me -- reduced the impact of the whole picture, like essentially another "Backlight" or "OLED Light" control...

Still, in talking about Sharpness on these sets, I do not believe any of the newer Samsungs allow you to go BELOW the "0" mark in terms of any value LOWER than that...

I do like that Samsung has the blue only mode. Allows you to verify color decoding is correct. LG had this and removed it in 2019. Hopefully it returns in 2020. Now if we can just get Sony to add the same control.

Indeed; that's something I don't go near (I believe you're referring to the "RGB ONLY Mode")...I leave this off and put Color Space on AUTO.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

Indeed; that's something I don't go near (I believe you're referring to the "RGB ONLY Mode")...I leave this off and put Color Space on AUTO.

The RGB only mode is there for user calibration of color and tint.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

Mr. Spears,

Thank you for answering this for me...

- Digital Clean View (comes by default on AUTO, I turn it OFF for 4K playback)
- Auto Motion Plus: Custom, Blur Reduction: 10 / Judder Reduction: 5 (personal preferences)

Do you have any insight here?

Are you using the same settings for SDR and HDR? How did you decide on the level to use? The reason I ask is one of the findings with HDR is the brighter you go, the more obvious judder becomes. So for SDR you may want a different setting than HDR. And then for HDR, a different setting for 1000 vs. 4000 nit content.

I recently attended a screening of MIB on a 16' CLED display at Sony. It was running at 48 Hz and they did some motion grading on some of the shots. We also got to see the before and after on some of the shots.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

The RGB only mode is there for user calibration of color and tint.

Well, it would be beyond my understanding, so I just leave it off...

I do leave Color Space at Auto, though.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Are you using the same settings for SDR and HDR? How did you decide on the level to use? The reason I ask is one of the findings with HDR is the brighter you go, the more obvious judder becomes. So for SDR you may want a different setting than HDR. And then for HDR, a different setting for 1000 vs. 4000 nit content.

Are you referring to just the MOTION settings, or ALL settings?

I do NOT use the same general picture settings for SDR and HDR, definitely not -- I am using the same Auto Motion Plus settings for SDR and HDR, though, and your statement about the brighter image bringing out more judder is definitely interesting because I have found this...

As a matter of fact, I remember reading a post in a thread I believe over at AVS in which someone said the HDR on these Samsungs only "makes that classic Samsung micro-stutter/judder WORSE"...interestingly, I have found this. Watching the Equalizer 2 and Fate of the Furious 4K Blu-rays in HDR10, there are definitely moments that seem to continuously stutter, and it's more aggressive than when watching HDR...

In getting back to what you were asking, though, regarding settings: The following are the primary differences between my SDR and HDR general settings...

- Backlight in SDR is "11" (this seems to give the best black levels for an edge-lit display like mine, and minimizes the flashlighting and clouding in the letterbox areas of scope films)

- Backlight in HDR is on "50" (maximum, as that's where the TV puts it by default when an HDR signal is detected; it was also recommended to me to always leave this on max for the right tonemapping process)

- Contrast in SDR is on "45" (out of "50;" this is the default level in Movie picture mode, and rtings even suggests it's right on the Samsungs)

- Contrast in HDR is on "50" (maximum; same reasons as Backlight above)

All the rest are pretty much the same between SDR and HDR, save for some small tweaks like Digital Clean View (Noise Reduction) on LOW for SDR and OFF for HDR, and Local Dimming on LOW for SDR and HIGH for HDR.

Now, are you saying that my Auto Motion Plus settings should be tweaked for HDR because these discs will exhibit more judder due to the higher brightness? Or should I leave the system completely off for 4K/HDR playback?

You mentioned "making JUDDER worse" -- were you referring to FILM JUDDER that is exhibited when 24fps content is displayed on these new 120Hz LCDs, or the MICRO-STUTTER effect, which the Samsungs are notorious for (which is something different from JUDDER)?

If you meant actual FILM JUDDER being worse in HDR because of its brightness, then perhaps no amount of motion smoothing will help these discs...
__________________________________________________ ____________

On another HDR-related topic...

With regard to HDR's Gamma curve...from what I understand, HDR's gamma is a kind of "fixed" value, as opposed to SDR's "scale" of sorts (which can be adjusted to 2.2, 2.4, etc.), and when my Sammy switches to HDR mode, the Gamma goes into the correct type (ST.2084). Now, I can STILL adjust the sliding scale Samsung provides when in HDR, but is this recommended and does it even do anything to the image if the HDR Gamma is more of a "fixed" standard?

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

Are you referring to just the MOTION settings, or ALL settings?

I do NOT use the same general picture settings for SDR and HDR, definitely not -- I am using the same Auto Motion Plus settings for SDR and HDR, though, and your statement about the brighter image bringing out more judder is definitely interesting because I have found this...

As a matter of fact, I remember reading a post in a thread I believe over at AVS in which someone said the HDR on these Samsungs only "makes that classic Samsung micro-stutter/judder WORSE"...interestingly, I have found this. Watching the Equalizer 2 and Fate of the Furious 4K Blu-rays in HDR10, there are definitely moments that seem to continuously stutter, and it's more aggressive than when watching HDR...

In getting back to what you were asking, though, regarding settings: The following are the primary differences between my SDR and HDR general settings...

- Backlight in SDR is "11" (this seems to give the best black levels for an edge-lit display like mine, and minimizes the flashlighting and clouding in the letterbox areas of scope films)

- Backlight in HDR is on "50" (maximum, as that's where the TV puts it by default when an HDR signal is detected; it was also recommended to me to always leave this on max for the right tonemapping process)

- Contrast in SDR is on "45" (out of "50;" this is the default level in Movie picture mode, and rtings even suggests it's right on the Samsungs)

- Contrast in HDR is on "50" (maximum; same reasons as Backlight above)

All the rest are pretty much the same between SDR and HDR, save for some small tweaks like Digital Clean View (Noise Reduction) on LOW for SDR and OFF for HDR, and Local Dimming on LOW for SDR and HIGH for HDR.

Now, are you saying that my Auto Motion Plus settings should be tweaked for HDR because these discs will exhibit more judder due to the higher brightness? Or should I leave the system completely off for 4K/HDR playback?

You mentioned "making JUDDER worse" -- were you referring to FILM JUDDER that is exhibited when 24fps content is displayed on these new 120Hz LCDs, or the MICRO-STUTTER effect, which the Samsungs are notorious for (which is something different from JUDDER)?

If you meant actual FILM JUDDER being worse in HDR because of its brightness, then perhaps no amount of motion smoothing will help these discs...
__________________________________________________ ____________

On another HDR-related topic...

With regard to HDR's Gamma curve...from what I understand, HDR's gamma is a kind of "fixed" value, as opposed to SDR's "scale" of sorts (which can be adjusted to 2.2, 2.4, etc.), and when my Sammy switches to HDR mode, the Gamma goes into the correct type (ST.2084). Now, I can STILL adjust the sliding scale Samsung provides when in HDR, but is this recommended and does it even do anything to the image if the HDR Gamma is more of a "fixed" standard?

1. Just talking about the motion smoothing and 24p judder. The 24p judder is more visible the brighter you go. So one thing being looked at is motion grading (smoothing) based on pans and brightness.

2. Both SDR and HDR have fixed transfer functions. The display allowing more than one is simply wrong, but they do it anyway. Most of the picture controls should actually be removed from the TV, but then customers would complain they don't have the controls.

SDR uses gamma 2.4 (BT.1886) and HDR uses ST2084 (aka PQ aka perceptual quantizer). No idea what the sliding scale does as it is a control that Samsung made up. I would have to look at a test pattern while adjusting to see what it does and which spot is correct, if any.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

1. Just talking about the motion smoothing and 24p judder. The 24p judder is more visible the brighter you go. So one thing being looked at is motion grading (smoothing) based on pans and brightness.

I see; but how about where motion smoothing algorithms come into play...such as with Samsung's Auto Motion Plus system? How do these affect the judder/motion when viewing HDR?

2. Both SDR and HDR have fixed transfer functions. The display allowing more than one is simply wrong, but they do it anyway. Most of the picture controls should actually be removed from the TV, but then customers would complain they don't have the controls.

Not average J6P customers who are using the panels mainly to view the Super Bowl, I would reckon...

SDR uses gamma 2.4 (BT.1886) and HDR uses ST2084 (aka PQ aka perceptual quantizer). No idea what the sliding scale does as it is a control that Samsung made up. I would have to look at a test pattern while adjusting to see what it does and which spot is correct, if any.

Actually, from what I understand, the slider scale in the Samsungs adjust for certain values of Gamma, even though they're not LABELED as such, making things ridiculously confusing for the average viewer. In other words, from what I read, the "0" mark on the Gamma slider when viewing SDR on the new Samsungs represents around 2.4 Gamma (I've also read that Samsung is "equating" this 2.4 value with 1886 at this "0" position, but not sure how true that is), while if you move the slider up to, say, "2," this would represent "2.2" Gamma...

I know when Rtings did a review of my particular Samsung and then reported the calibration findings, they left Gamma on "2" on the scale, because they claimed it represented their target -- I then learned that "2" on this scale was equating to somewhere around "2.2" Gamma, which is what Rtings was shooting for, but "2" on the scale on MY panel seems to make blacks too high/bright, so I leave it on "0."

I don't know; perhaps someone else with some experience in adjusting Samsungs can shed some additional light here...

[rexcrk]

I haven’t had a chance to play with this much yet but I wanted to ask.

I have the Sony UBP-X800 4K player which has a setting to look for an HDR signal that can be set to “Auto” and “off”. I should turn that OFF when I’m using the test disc right? My TV model is a Sony XBR-55X930D if that matters.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by rexcrk

I haven’t had a chance to play with this much yet but I wanted to ask.

I have the Sony UBP-X800 4K player which has a setting to look for an HDR signal that can be set to “Auto” and “off”. I should turn that OFF when I’m using the test disc right? My TV model is a Sony XBR-55X930D if that matters.

Off doesn't sound right.

If set on "Auto" for HDR, the display should engage HDR10 flag whenever the disk sends HDR content. Player can't send HDR if set to "Off".

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Are you using the same settings for SDR and HDR? How did you decide on the level to use? The reason I ask is one of the findings with HDR is the brighter you go, the more obvious judder becomes. So for SDR you may want a different setting than HDR. And then for HDR, a different setting for 1000 vs. 4000 nit content.

I recently attended a screening of MIB on a 16' CLED display at Sony. It was running at 48 Hz and they did some motion grading on some of the shots. We also got to see the before and after on some of the shots.

Yup, the brighter the image is the more that conventional 24fps image capture can suffer for it, there are some judder-tastic slow pans in certain movies that look even worse in HDR, e.g. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...2#post15877482

But yay me for already having a reduced brightness "4000-nit mode"!