The Criterion Collection

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by jw007

I'd like to know the deeper story behind what compelled Criterion to release those 2 Michael Bay movies on DVD. Was it pure luck? Was it seriously thought through? Was it an attempt to compete with larger video distributors and studios?

If I was gonna be flip, I’d say Armageddon is in the collection solely for the amazing commentary. But honestly, and I think they’ve said this before, they consider the films representative of a certain kind of 90s action filmmaking and felt it was valid to include them. I think a far stronger argument can be made for The Rock with that rationale, as it was quite well-regarded at the time. But you know, like Wes Anderson, sometimes Criterion builds relationships with directors.

At any rate, they certainly weren’t averse to big, popular films when they got the opportunity. Back in the LD days, the first three Bond films were in the collection; so was Ghostbusters. Close Encounters, Blade Runner, Akira, Bram Stoker’s Dracula, Robocop. Monty Python and the Holy Grail! They’ve always been more than open to the right pitch for a great popular entertainment.

[tatterdemalion]

Originally Posted by DimitriL

If I was gonna be flip, I’d say Armageddon is in the collection solely for the amazing commentary. But honestly, and I think they’ve said this before, they consider the films representative of a certain kind of 90s action filmmaking and felt it was valid to include them. I think a far stronger argument can be made for The Rock with that rationale, as it was quite well-regarded at the time. But you know, like Wes Anderson, sometimes Criterion builds relationships with directors.

At any rate, they certainly weren’t averse to big, popular films when they got the opportunity. Back in the LD days, the first three Bond films were in the collection; so was Ghostbusters. Close Encounters, Blade Runner, Akira, Bram Stoker’s Dracula, Robocop. Monty Python and the Holy Grail! They’ve always been more than open to the right pitch for a great popular entertainment.

I was about to type the same thing with the same answers! On LD they also had Jason and the Argonauts, Lawrence of Arabia, King Kong, It's a Wonderful Life, 2001, The Producers, Bad Day at Black Rock and many more. For every miss they had they hit the target way more often.

[ravenus]

Originally Posted by jw007

I'd like to know the deeper story behind what compelled Criterion to release those 2 Michael Bay movies on DVD. Was it pure luck? Was it seriously thought through? Was it an attempt to compete with larger video distributors and studios?

My guess is that the DVD market was still nascent at the time, and they wanted to go with a property that is already popular and had a built-in fan base, rather than some arthouse flick. And Bay's pride in his movies and enthusiasm for talking about his process gave them extraordinary access to the making-of materials. There was a time before we could take for granted the "hours and hours of extras" on the back blurb of DVD's, and Criterion's efforts helped build that market.

But what is this "What compelled Criterion to release..."? The Rock is a classic of modern Hollywood blockbuster movie-making. Decades later, it is still quoted and enjoyed by fans. Ed Harris' character is a better written bad guy than you see in many movies. Maybe someone at Criterion genuinely likes Bay but has been shut out by the other snooty arthouse snobs on the board.

[tatterdemalion]

Originally Posted by ravenus

My guess is that the DVD market was still nascent at the time, and they wanted to go with a property that is already popular and had a built-in fan base, rather than some arthouse flick. And Bay's pride in his movies and enthusiasm for talking about his process gave them extraordinary access to the making-of materials. There was a time before we could take for granted the "hours and hours of extras" on the back blurb of DVD's, and Criterion's efforts helped build that market.

But what is this "What compelled Criterion to release..."? The Rock is a classic of modern Hollywood blockbuster movie-making. Decades later, it is still quoted and enjoyed by fans. Ed Harris' character is a better written bad guy than you see in many movies. Maybe someone at Criterion genuinely likes Bay but has been shut out by the other snooty arthouse snobs on the board.

Yeah, they were just putting their foot in the DVD market and Bay films were big blockbusters at that point in time. It would help to get their company name out there to a new fan base and help bring in cash to get the ball rolling.

I do assume like most films that had a release in the collection it's simply the inability to get the rights back. That's why so many LD releases never showed back up on DVD or BD. Along with those we were mentioning above I just remembered I had a Criterion LD copy of Forbidden Planet. So many of these LD had supplements that never reappeared anywhere else. I miss The Teenage Fall-out Queen video that was on Dr. Strangelove. Thank goodness places like YouTube came along so I can find things like that again.

And hey, I'm an art-house snob so I give you an "Why I oughtta..."

[nitin]

Re the first UHD, I know people have lots of opinions about the format, but I must admit I pretty much see it as a bonus if a film I like ends up on UHD. The benefit to me of Criterion going UHD is that I like a lot of their catalog and therefore the chances of getting a bonus for films I like is pretty high.

[Vinyl]

Originally Posted by tatterdemalion

Yeah, they were just putting their foot in the DVD market and Bay films were big blockbusters at that point in time. It would help to get their company name out there to a new fan base and help bring in cash to get the ball rolling.

I do assume like most films that had a release in the collection it's simply the inability to get the rights back. That's why so many LD releases never showed back up on DVD or BD. Along with those we were mentioning above I just remembered I had a Criterion LD copy of Forbidden Planet. So many of these LD had supplements that never reappeared anywhere else. I miss The Teenage Fall-out Queen video that was on Dr. Strangelove. Thank goodness places like YouTube came along so I can find things like that again.

And hey, I'm an art-house snob so I give you an "Why I oughtta..."

A good percentage of their early DVDs were more known titles that they expected would sell more just because of the movie name recognition. They had Silence of the Lambs, Robocop, This is Spinal Tap, Sid and Nancy, etc. at the beginning. They are still doing this type of thing now with stuff like the Police Story releases. They also do oddball releases such as all the atomic age sci-fi including The Blob, Fiend Without a Face, that atomic age box set, all the way to the present with their recent announcement of The Incredible Shrinking Man, they do horror-like movies like the classic Japanese horror stuff, Carnival of Souls and Seconds.

I think a lot of the first DVD releases they did because of the price or the popularity of the film. The more they got their brand name out there, the bigger chances on lesser known films they could make. In the end, it’s just smart business sense.

[Snicket]

Originally Posted by DimitriL

If I was gonna be flip, I’d say Armageddon is in the collection solely for the amazing commentary. But honestly, and I think they’ve said this before, they consider the films representative of a certain kind of 90s action filmmaking and felt it was valid to include them. I think a far stronger argument can be made for The Rock with that rationale, as it was quite well-regarded at the time. But you know, like Wes Anderson, sometimes Criterion builds relationships with directors.

At any rate, they certainly weren’t averse to big, popular films when they got the opportunity. Back in the LD days, the first three Bond films were in the collection; so was Ghostbusters. Close Encounters, Blade Runner, Akira, Bram Stoker’s Dracula, Robocop. Monty Python and the Holy Grail! They’ve always been more than open to the right pitch for a great popular entertainment.

Not quite. The Criterion that released those movies is not at all the same company as it exists today. Back in the early home video days before studios were all in on physical media criterion was used as a way to release movies so studios get a nice cut of the profits without have to do the work of putting a release together.

It didn’t really have anything to do at all with the artistic impact of the films. It was more like the studio hired them, and they did it. The branding of themselves as the Noah’s Ark of important work as we know them today did not come in until later.

[BluLobsta]

I've only known Criterion for perhaps a dozen years so my frame of reference is more recent. I was surprised to see Armageddon and The Rock mentioned. My introduction to Criterion was Godard, Ozu, Lynch, etc. Can you imagine seeing Armageddon on the Criterion title webpage? It was panned so bad back in the day.

[ShellOilJunior]

Originally Posted by jw007

I'd like to know the deeper story behind what compelled Criterion to release those 2 Michael Bay movies on DVD. Was it pure luck? Was it seriously thought through? Was it an attempt to compete with larger video distributors and studios?

If anyone can explain the backstory behind how (and more importantly why) in the world did Criterion get Armageddon and The Rock, I'd love to hear!

Furthermore, if someone should ever make a documentary film about the Criterion Collection, I'd like the mystery behind the Bay blockbuster movies to be revealed.

Interview from 1999 with Peter Becker.

http://archive.thedigitalbits.com/ar...iterionpb.html

Spoiler-marked part below talks about Bay's movies.

[Show spoiler]Doogan: What was up with the rumors that went around about Michael Bay pulling a bit of clout to get the Armageddon disc out from Criterion.

Becker: Armageddon was actually an extremely easy, straightforward thing. The back-story on the whole Disney working relations has been very smooth. It was very smooth all through our laser life -- I think we did about 16 or 17 titles on laser with Disney and Miramax. Among those was The Rock. When The Rock came up the first time, that was going to be a monstrous amount of work, and we approached it with a little bit of trepidation. Michael really wanted to see it happen and so we said, "okay, let's do it." We hadn't done a major action film like that before... well, we had done non-traditional action films...

Doogan: Like Spartacus. Sparacus is kind of an action film. An epic, historical, spear-through-the-belly action film, but an action film none-the-less.

Becker: Not really though, I mean only in the same way that Henry V or Passion of Joan of Arc is an action film. What Michael does is a very specific, very current, modern brand of adrenal entertainment, and we'd never really done a movie like that before, and we didn't really know how to approach it at first. We started to realize that we had to approach it on its own terms. I don't know if you remember The Rock LD box, but inside the insert, there was a quote from Jerry Bruckheimer that basically said that there's a difference between a megablockbuster and other kinds of film. A movie like that comes out swinging for the fences. It's a whole other style of filmmaking, and it was interesting for us. We approached it with, like I said, a bit of trepidation.

Doogan: Were you guys fans enough of The Rock that you consider it a modern day classic?

Becker: We are. Honestly, within the staff, we had mixed opinions. That's often the way it is with modern stuff that we do with current films. It's much harder to argue about the merits of a film when it just comes out in the theaters, than it is 40 years later, after it's stood the test of time. It's a lot easier to argue the merits of Seven Samurai now than it probably was in the 50's.

Doogan: I have always thought that The Rock was the perfect brainless action film. Because it's perfect in that sense, I think it's good enough for me to have a Criterion edition.

Becker: Well, you know, I think the key to it is that the edition itself has to be a good edition, and I'm very proud of what we did on The Rock. I'm very proud of what we've done on both of Michael's films. And we couldn't have done it without him, and that's part of what our whole way of working is. We really try to take our leads very strongly from the filmmakers themselves and the people involved, trying not to leave any stone unturned. The story on The Rock is essentially that Michael really did wanted to do a Rock Criterion laser, and he made that known to the folks at Disney. The folks at Disney called us and said, "Do you want to do it?" We asked if we could think about it overnight, and we had a long, knock-down, drag-out about it. When it was all over, you know what? We actually did want to do it. This was a pretty exciting project. And from then on, we didn't really look back. We had a great time, and it was a huge disc, not in terms of sales so much in the laser market, although it was strong, but in terms of content. When Michael made Armageddon, he called us while he was shooting at one point and just checked in with us along the way. There was a whole bunch of back and forth between us subsequent to The Rock, and when it came time for Armageddon to go to home video, the only issue with Disney was being able to work out arrangements to be able to do it on DVD as well as laser at that point, because we were converting so much of our work to DVD.

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by Snicket

Not quite. The Criterion that released those movies is not at all the same company as it exists today. Back in the early home video days before studios were all in on physical media criterion was used as a way to release movies so studios get a nice cut of the profits without have to do the work of putting a release together.

It didn’t really have anything to do at all with the artistic impact of the films. It was more like the studio hired them, and they did it. The branding of themselves as the Noah’s Ark of important work as we know them today did not come in until later.

With all due respect, this simply isn’t so. Maybe in the very early days - I’m talking Blade Runner era - studios took a flyer on certain Criterion titles as a profit grab. But by 1988, 1989, studios were already all-in on LD and some of them that were licensing to Criterion were also doing proper special editions of their own. George Feltenstein was in at WB. And by the mid-90s - certainly by the time we got some of their most populist releases like Robocop, Silence, Spinal Tap, The Rock and Armageddon at the end of the LD era and everyone was hurtling towards DVD - Criterion had shed its experimental Hypercard indie roots and was *absolutely* the company we know now, and unless they had backing, they had to work like HELL to get rights. I worked for an early online LD retailer that existed even before the World Wide Web, we heard from people deep inside production pipelines all the time, so I’m not talking out of turn.

As for that branding, this statement has been on every Criterion disc since 001 (and even before they started numbering their releases): “The Criterion Collection, a continuing series of important classic and contemporary films, presents…” They have always presented themselves as an attempt to establish a canon.

[koberulz]

What's up with Othello? I can't find the US version on Amazon, and the UK version is obscenely expensive basically everywhere.

[Rayjg]

I believe The Rock and Armageddon came about due to an article in the NYT. Criterion wasn’t catering to the hoi polloi. Joe Six-Pack was hired to head acquisitions and all was well..for a time.

[bokes]

Picked up The Furires as a blind buy.
Decent film with well earned moments- but heck if John Williams didn’t hear this film.
A few blatant stolen themes used in Indiana Jones. What a thief.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by koberulz

What's up with Othello? I can't find the US version on Amazon, and the UK version is obscenely expensive basically everywhere.

https://www.amazon.com/Othello-Blu-r...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

The UK version is 24.50, but shows as unavailable to me (and perhaps you too) unless I switch my shipping to a UK address.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Othello-Blu...A3P5ROKL5A1OLE

[koberulz]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

https://www.amazon.com/Othello-Blu-r...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

The UK version is 24.50, but shows as unavailable to me (and perhaps you too) unless I switch my shipping to a UK address.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Othello-Blu...A3P5ROKL5A1OLE

We can't buy from Amazon UK at all, AFAIK. Amazon AU has the UK version through the global store, but it comes out at $35 US, around 30 GBP, 46 Australian dollars. Most US Criterions are around $30 Australian at the moment.

It's even more than that to get it via RareWaves on eBay.

[dancerslegs]

Originally Posted by bokes

Picked up The Furires as a blind buy.
Decent film with well earned moments- but heck if John Williams didn’t hear this film.
A few blatant stolen themes used in Indiana Jones. What a thief.

Most film composers are "thieves". I highly recommend you not listen to any Prokofiev, for example, lest you feel differently about James Horner.

[fitprod]

Armageddon and The Rock were released on LD (and DVD) as a strategic move. It did help that Criterion had a relationship with Disney/Miramax at the time.

Other titles released during the later LD years:
Chasing Amy, Dead Presidents, El Cid (controlled by Miramax at the time); English Patient, Evita, Pulp Fiction, Sling Blade, Supercop and Trainspotting

The sales from those "unworthy*" titles funded many of the smaller Criterion titles that would not be big sellers.

fitprod

*That being said, I feel The Rock was a legit release, Armageddon was a bonus.

[hariseldon]

Originally Posted by koberulz

We can't buy from Amazon UK at all, AFAIK. Amazon AU has the UK version through the global store, but it comes out at $35 US, around 30 GBP, 46 Australian dollars. Most US Criterions are around $30 Australian at the moment.

It's even more than that to get it via RareWaves on eBay.

It;s available at Deep Discount though remember that Othello is a $50MSRP title so it's going to be $5-10 more to begin. I'm not sure what the UK base price is (?RRP), but my guess it's also more expensive since it's a 2 disc title

Even with a 15% off code DD would be more expensive than AmazonAU after shipping and GST however

[dvining]

Originally Posted by dancerslegs

Most film composers are "thieves". I highly recommend you not listen to any Prokofiev, for example, lest you feel differently about James Horner.

You're so cool.

Hans Zimmer - You're So Cool - YouTube

Stolen by Hans Zimmer from Carl Orff who stole it from Hans Neusiedler.

[Vigojean]

Originally Posted by BluLobsta

Can you imagine seeing Armageddon on the Criterion title webpage? It was panned so bad back in the day.

Read the Facebook comments for Criterion. Lots of losers have a problem with the Bruce Lee set and Jackie Chan movies, so the snobbery is still there. And God forbid they post about Bowling for Columbine, then it’s WWIII.