The Criterion Collection

[regeyer]

Originally Posted by rooprect

Why Criterion will never go to 4k

Let's think about this from Criterion's point of view. What would happen if they start releasing 4k discs, even just a few? The first thing that would happen, I guarantee you, is that people would stop buying their regular 1080p discs in anticipation of 4k, and their DVD stock would become worthless.

We saw it to a certain degree with 1080p over DVD. Everyone stopped buying DVD and Laserdisc went byebye. Overnight, all those DVDs we spent hundreds on became ebay bargain feed. Remember how frustrating that was, as consumers, for our expensive collection to become worthless ovenight? Now consider this from the business's perspective. Warehouses of the stuff, blu-rays & DVDs, bound for the next barge to Overstock dot com. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say the losses would amount to a few million, literally within 1 business quarter.

In order to overcome that business-model killer, there would need to be an OVERWHELMING shift in demand from 1080p to 4k. And when I say 'overwhelming' I mean of the same magnitude of DVD shifting to blu-ray (which still isn't complete since Criterion still sells DVDs at high prices).

Below this point is speculation:

I personally don't believe 4k will ever have that sort of universal surge. It isn't just a cost issue (4k tvs, 4k players) but it's the fact that the public--the average human eye--is happy with 1080p.

My expertise is audio engineering, and I've been working since the days of cassette tapes. A similar progress/evolution happened in the audio world and maxed out in the 1990s with CD quality (16 bit, 44.1kHz). CD quality is laughably horrible compared to what technology currently offers (32 bit, 384kHz). But CD remains the consumer standard 30 years later, and most audiophiles have accepted that consumer audio (digital) aint getting another upgrade in our lifetimes. Around the 2000s, record labels flirted with DVDa (24 bit, 96kHz) releases for the consumer market. Didn't go well. Sure, audiophiles lapped it up, but planet earth at large was happy with CD.

More disturbingly, planet earth at large has subsequently lowered its standards to mp3 quality, marking the clear intersection of size/portability vs quality where demand rests. This left the DVDa crowd hanging, eternally. To a lesser degree, I think this is what will happen with 4k. It won't go obsolete like DVDa, but I think it will remain limited to new films which are already shot in digital so 4k is a no brainer. Older films which require transfers and extensive restoration just aren't worth the trouble.

Criterion can't just flip a switch and convert their entire library to 4k. In most cases, they would have to fly back to Zurich or whatever obscure film archive holds the sole remaining prints, and they would have to re-scan everything in at least 8k so that the restoration process can have some headroom to deal with--and yes it would have to be RE-restored. What does every Criterion booklet say...? "Thousands of instances of dirt, scratches and damage were manually removed..."

AND THEY'D HAVE TO DO IT ALL AGAIN?

My friends, nobody would love to see these classics in 4k as much as me, but... dude... it would be the dumbest business move ever; Criterion would go bankrupt within 2 years, and none of us want that.

This is well put and it's essentially what I've been saying for years. I don't see it happening. I have nothing against UHD, but switching to UHD will be problematic to Criterion for a number of reason, some of which you identified.

Now, I could be wrong, and Criterion will make an announcement soon that UHD is coming. But I have my doubts. I think if they go to UHD that they will loose money. Big time.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by jkoffman

OK, I'm aware of that rumor from one person, but what was actually leaked? No mention of dates there.

A leak can be any information that the company does not want to be made public. In this case, the information that a 4K title is coming, and what that title is has leaked out from them, and has been confirmed independently by another person.

[jkoffman]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

A leak can be any information that the company does not want to be made public. In this case, the information that a 4K title is coming, and what that title is has leaked out from them, and has been confirmed independently by another person.

Still asking: Dates were leaked? Where?

[tama]

Originally Posted by jkoffman

Still asking: Dates were leaked? Where?

Dates weren't leaked. The assumption was it would be announced for this calendar year. I personally believe if it's not part of the next announcement for November then it won't be this year. December isn't usually a big month for them.

[MifuneFan]

Yeah, I'm not sure if specific dates were leaked. I know Bill Hunt through his own sources strongly believes one of the titles will be announced / released before year's end because that title in question celebrates a significant anniversary this year. That title I imagine has to be Citizen Kane.

[DukeTogo84]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Yeah, I'm not sure if specific dates were leaked. I know Bill Hunt through his own sources strongly believes one of the titles will be announced / released before year's end because that title in question celebrates a significant anniversary this year. That title I imagine has to be Citizen Kane.

Will be interesting to see if that will be the title. The leaker said it would be a title that was released in the last 30 years, but I feel like Citizen Kane would make the most sense. I also hope they release Mank at the same time.

[*DrStrangelove*]

Originally Posted by Mose Harper

My enthusiasm for seeking out blind buys skyrockets after running across a winner, such as was the case with the Von Sternberg Dietrich set which led to picking up the silent set.
Doesn't have to be similar material either. A satisfying blind buy, for me, encourages an openness in taking chances on all kinds of new material.

blind buying Criterions is my favorite pass time Criterion has introduced me to so many great films I would've never gotten to see, so ill gladly shell out for a blind buy. I generally trust them with that. Even if sometimes its a film I don't particularly like I can still appreciate owning it. I can't really say there's ever been a blind buy from Criterion that Ive hated but one I didn't care too much for that comes to mind is Secret Sunshine. Maybe I need to give it a rewatch cause I love Korean films and the actors in this film, maybe I just wasn't in the right frame of mind when I watched it years ago, regardless I didn't hate it to the point id want to sell my copy. What are some blind buys you guys were let down by?

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by DukeTogo84

Will be interesting to see if that will be the title. The leaker said it would be a title that was released in the last 30 years, but I feel like Citizen Kane would make the most sense. I also hope they release Mank at the same time.

Criterion no doubt has a few UHD titles lined up already, so I think the two leaks/rumors are independent of one another. For me, I think a Citizen Kane release is as good as confirmed right now, especially with word of the commentary track that was being worked on. I think if Warner was planning that release themselves, it would have been announced already (unless they're inexplicably planning it for next year). Whether it's UHD is another question. I think it's possible we could see a standalone CK release, as well as an Orson Welles box set.

[BaronVH]

My slightly different take on UHD. I hope that Criterion is doing gangbusters with business and crunched the numbers, because it would seem to me that their move may limit their ability to acquire future films to release. I am not completely sold on the trade off. I might rather see more high quality BDs that they have never released, but, on the other hand, I do trust them. There is no question that UHDs will have a higher costs to produce and release with fewer titles purchased. Please do not think that I am opposed to it outright. They have brought so many wonderful films to me over the years, and I truly want their business to do well.

[Gacivory]

Originally Posted by DukeTogo84

Will be interesting to see if that will be the title. The leaker said it would be a title that was released in the last 30 years, but I feel like Citizen Kane would make the most sense. I also hope they release Mank at the same time.

Or both. Mank & Citizen Kane 4K released the same month. Maybe The Other Side of the Wind also finally gets a Blu or gets a 4K too.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by BaronVH

My slightly different take on UHD. I hope that Criterion is doing gangbusters with business and crunched the numbers, because it would seem to me that their move may limit their ability to acquire future films to release. I am not completely sold on the trade off. I might rather see more high quality BDs that they have never released, but, on the other hand, I do trust them. There is no question that UHDs will have a higher costs to produce and release with fewer titles purchased. Please do not think that I am opposed to it outright. They have brought so many wonderful films to me over the years, and I truly want their business to do well.

Why would it limit their ability to acquire future films? It's not a move that implies every future title wil be UHD.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by Gacivory

I feel like Arrow is a good comparison here. Not all of their titles got a 4K release. Just ones they think would sell well.

Yep, same with Kino, and Shout! too.

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by rooprect

Why Criterion will never go to 4k

Let's think about this from Criterion's point of view. What would happen if they start releasing 4k discs, even just a few? The first thing that would happen, I guarantee you, is that people would stop buying their regular 1080p discs in anticipation of 4k, and their DVD stock would become worthless.

We saw it to a certain degree with 1080p over DVD. Everyone stopped buying DVD and Laserdisc went byebye. Overnight, all those DVDs we spent hundreds on became ebay bargain feed. Remember how frustrating that was, as consumers, for our expensive collection to become worthless ovenight? Now consider this from the business's perspective. Warehouses of the stuff, blu-rays & DVDs, bound for the next barge to Overstock dot com. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say the losses would amount to a few million, literally within 1 business quarter.

In order to overcome that business-model killer, there would need to be an OVERWHELMING shift in demand from 1080p to 4k. And when I say 'overwhelming' I mean of the same magnitude of DVD shifting to blu-ray (which still isn't complete since Criterion still sells DVDs at high prices).

Below this point is speculation:

I personally don't believe 4k will ever have that sort of universal surge. It isn't just a cost issue (4k tvs, 4k players) but it's the fact that the public--the average human eye--is happy with 1080p.

My expertise is audio engineering, and I've been working since the days of cassette tapes. A similar progress/evolution happened in the audio world and maxed out in the 1990s with CD quality (16 bit, 44.1kHz). CD quality is laughably horrible compared to what technology currently offers (32 bit, 384kHz). But CD remains the consumer standard 30 years later, and most audiophiles have accepted that consumer audio (digital) aint getting another upgrade in our lifetimes. Around the 2000s, record labels flirted with DVDa (24 bit, 96kHz) releases for the consumer market. Didn't go well. Sure, audiophiles lapped it up, but planet earth at large was happy with CD.

More disturbingly, planet earth at large has subsequently lowered its standards to mp3 quality, marking the clear intersection of size/portability vs quality where demand rests. This left the DVDa crowd hanging, eternally. To a lesser degree, I think this is what will happen with 4k. It won't go obsolete like DVDa, but I think it will remain limited to new films which are already shot in digital so 4k is a no brainer. Older films which require transfers and extensive restoration just aren't worth the trouble.

Criterion can't just flip a switch and convert their entire library to 4k. In most cases, they would have to fly back to Zurich or whatever obscure film archive holds the sole remaining prints, and they would have to re-scan everything in at least 8k so that the restoration process can have some headroom to deal with--and yes it would have to be RE-restored. What does every Criterion booklet say...? "Thousands of instances of dirt, scratches and damage were manually removed..."

AND THEY'D HAVE TO DO IT ALL AGAIN?

My friends, nobody would love to see these classics in 4k as much as me, but... dude... it would be the dumbest business move ever; Criterion would go bankrupt within 2 years, and none of us want that.

There are a lot of assumptions here, which history hasn’t borne out. You’re right about the DVD-laserdisc transition, but laserdiscs were a niche and ungodly expensive format and people were thrilled to move to something more convenient, where they didn’t have to shell out $125 for the most deluxe editions.

Also, you know, who said that Criterion was going to go back and rescan their entire catalog? There’s still a bunch amount of titles that haven’t made the transition from DVD to BD that they’re still selling. New formats don’t mean that Criterion is going to rush and do new transfers of their entire library. It’s an ongoing churn.

And you talk about DVD as the abandoned obsolete crowd, but I mean, how do you get at that? DVD sales are such an important component of Criterion’s sales - especially institutional sales to entities like libraries - that it killed their entire dual format strategy to lower costs. Yeah, people like streaming. There will be people who keep buying BD for the next decade; they’re not going to just stop on a dime. And most likely, any UHD releases will be dual-format with a BD platter, and there will still be a DVD release bc that demand isn’t going away anytime soon.

(Last, and I know this is your specialty, but Apple literally just threw their entire service open to lossless audio, available with up to 24-bit encodes, for no extra charge, with Atmos spatial audio if you want that too. Spotify is rumored to be following shortly. So I don’t know what you’re talking about with nothing like that happening in our lifetime when it’s happening as we speak.)

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by rooprect

Why Criterion will never go to 4k

Let's think about this from Criterion's point of view. What would happen if they start releasing 4k discs, even just a few? The first thing that would happen, I guarantee you, is that people would stop buying their regular 1080p discs in anticipation of 4k, and their DVD stock would become worthless.

We saw it to a certain degree with 1080p over DVD. Everyone stopped buying DVD and Laserdisc went byebye. Overnight, all those DVDs we spent hundreds on became ebay bargain feed. Remember how frustrating that was, as consumers, for our expensive collection to become worthless ovenight? Now consider this from the business's perspective. Warehouses of the stuff, blu-rays & DVDs, bound for the next barge to Overstock dot com. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say the losses would amount to a few million, literally within 1 business quarter.

In order to overcome that business-model killer, there would need to be an OVERWHELMING shift in demand from 1080p to 4k. And when I say 'overwhelming' I mean of the same magnitude of DVD shifting to blu-ray (which still isn't complete since Criterion still sells DVDs at high prices).

Below this point is speculation:

I personally don't believe 4k will ever have that sort of universal surge. It isn't just a cost issue (4k tvs, 4k players) but it's the fact that the public--the average human eye--is happy with 1080p.

My expertise is audio engineering, and I've been working since the days of cassette tapes. A similar progress/evolution happened in the audio world and maxed out in the 1990s with CD quality (16 bit, 44.1kHz). CD quality is laughably horrible compared to what technology currently offers (32 bit, 384kHz). But CD remains the consumer standard 30 years later, and most audiophiles have accepted that consumer audio (digital) aint getting another upgrade in our lifetimes. Around the 2000s, record labels flirted with DVDa (24 bit, 96kHz) releases for the consumer market. Didn't go well. Sure, audiophiles lapped it up, but planet earth at large was happy with CD.

More disturbingly, planet earth at large has subsequently lowered its standards to mp3 quality, marking the clear intersection of size/portability vs quality where demand rests. This left the DVDa crowd hanging, eternally. To a lesser degree, I think this is what will happen with 4k. It won't go obsolete like DVDa, but I think it will remain limited to new films which are already shot in digital so 4k is a no brainer. Older films which require transfers and extensive restoration just aren't worth the trouble.

Criterion can't just flip a switch and convert their entire library to 4k. In most cases, they would have to fly back to Zurich or whatever obscure film archive holds the sole remaining prints, and they would have to re-scan everything in at least 8k so that the restoration process can have some headroom to deal with--and yes it would have to be RE-restored. What does every Criterion booklet say...? "Thousands of instances of dirt, scratches and damage were manually removed..."

AND THEY'D HAVE TO DO IT ALL AGAIN?

My friends, nobody would love to see these classics in 4k as much as me, but... dude... it would be the dumbest business move ever; Criterion would go bankrupt within 2 years, and none of us want that.

Other boutique labels have already made the switch to 4K and followed a business model of only releasing certain titles on UHD, this has not prevented them from releasing titles on blu-ray as well and doing so successfully.

If Criterion follow this same model, and make it clear to consumers that not everything will receive a 4K release, there is no reason they can't succeed at it.

Contrary to what you say in your summation, not moving with the times while all of your competitors are is the dumbest business move ever.

[fitprod]

Originally Posted by Gacivory

I’d happily buy Armageddon 4K from Criterion!

This won’t likely happen for two reasons:

1. Disney doesn’t license out titles anymore.

2. The alternate print used for Aramageddon was edited into the film via video*, and the original film elements for this cut were lost during the Universal archive fire.

Fitprod

*This was also the reason the Criterion DVD was non-anamorphic.

[koberulz]

Originally Posted by rooprect

[FONT="Arial Black"]The first thing that would happen, I guarantee you, is that people would stop buying their regular 1080p discs in anticipation of 4k, and their DVD stock would become worthless.

The fact that people still buy Blu-rays from Kino, Arrow, and the majors disproves this.

We saw it to a certain degree with 1080p over DVD. Everyone stopped buying DVD

DVD outsold Blu-ray as a format for the first decade of Blu-ray's existence.

I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say the losses would amount to a few million, literally within 1 business quarter.

This is just laughable.

In order to overcome that business-model killer, there would need to be an OVERWHELMING shift in demand from 1080p to 4k. And when I say 'overwhelming' I mean of the same magnitude of DVD shifting to blu-ray

So by "overwhelming" you mean "barely"? Because again, for the first decade of Blu-ray being a thing, DVDs sold more.

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by fitprod

This won’t likely happen for two reasons:

1. Disney doesn’t license out titles anymore.

2. The alternate print used for Aramageddon was edited into the film via video*, and the original film elements for this cut were lost during the Universal archive fire.

Fitprod

*This was also the reason the Criterion DVD was non-anamorphic.

1) Largely correct, but I’d argue that remains to be seen. As far as we know, they haven’t cut off Fox product, and I’m not sure where Touchstone stands. Certainly they’re hostile to licensing, but if Bay pushed for it, it’s not impossible like it is for stuff with the full Disney imprimatur.

2) Can you elaborate on this a little bit more? I haven’t heard anything abt the provenance of what Criterion used, and internet searches turned up bupkis. Universal still maintains there wasn’t anything permanently lost on the video side of that disaster, they only had digital archives stored there and no film elements.

[BunyipPouch]

Originally Posted by jkoffman

Leaked implies there has been leaked evidence provided, but has there been? I didn't think so, but maybe I missed it. I don't care to speculate on such things because it doesn't change my life in any way. But in this age of "fake news" and "alternative facts" I refuse to let a rumor become truth just because it's been repeated enough times.

Yeah it's super annoying that some people are now spreading it as a 100% fact. It first started as a random leak that may or not be true, only a couple of people have even seen the "proof" and no one can confirm or deny anything. Now it's become:

"They're going 4K in December or 2022, it's already been leaked."

Shows how fast misinformation spreads. I'm sure the yolo guy has good intentions and isn't lying about what he knows, he seems honest, but it's far from anything being confirmed.

[Gacivory]

Originally Posted by fitprod

This won’t likely happen for two reasons:

1. Disney doesn’t license out titles anymore.

2. The alternate print used for Aramageddon was edited into the film via video*, and the original film elements for this cut were lost during the Universal archive fire.

Fitprod

*This was also the reason the Criterion DVD was non-anamorphic.

Cool story bro. I just said I’d buy it. Not that it was guaranteed to happen or anything. I’m aware of Disney not licensing out. I’m a user here after all.

[jkoffman]

Originally Posted by BunyipPouch

Yeah it's super annoying that some people are now spreading it as a 100% fact. It first started as a random leak that may or not be true, only a couple of people have even seen the "proof" and no one can confirm or deny anything. Now it's become:

"They're going 4K in December or 2022, it's already been leaked."

Shows how fast misinformation spreads. I'm sure the yolo guy has good intentions and isn't lying about what he knows, he seems honest, but it's far from anything being confirmed.

Thank you! You put it better than I could.