The Criterion Collection

[GxyExpress999]

One of my favorite films. I visited some of the filming locations (both Before Sunrise & The Thrid Man) in Vienna while I was there a few years ago, including the ferris wheel, the cafe and the record shop.

[ROclockCK]

Originally Posted by retablo

I've watched Children of Paradise and I quite like it. It's certainly different-looking than before, but even with the supposed filtering, there's still an abundance of detail. And the silvery sheen of the contrast (to me, anyway) adds to the dreamlike quality of the visuals.

Absolutely agree retablo. Carné's Les enfants du paradis happens to be one of my all-time faves, although I've only seen it on film twice...once in the mid 80s via revival (and a somewhat battered 16mm print), and once before that in the early 70s via a 35mm archival academic print struck in the 60s. The latter was actually much closer to the look of this Blu-ray, with a distinctly lower contrast vintage "silver sheen" throughout.

Forget the subject matter, but does this look familiar?



High key, yet no inky blacks or sizzling whites. And for all practical purposes grainless. Yet the detail is still there. That was the look of vintage silver.

Is it possible that we've been seeing this classic film printed and transferred incorrectly all these years...that when Pathé went back to the original negative to rescan they discovered a different original look? I'd like to hear from a film archivist for the final word on the accuracy of this transfer.

I any case, although I had to get used to the look of this Criterion Blu-ray, I wasn't put off by it. As you say, its "dreaminess" very much suits this subject.

[retablo]

Originally Posted by ROclockCK

Absolutely agree retablo. Carné's Les enfants du paradis happens to be one of my all-time faves, although I've only seen it on film twice...once in the mid 80s via revival (and a somewhat battered 16mm print), and once before that in the early 70s via a 35mm archival academic print struck in the 60s. The latter was actually much closer to the look of this Blu-ray, with a distinctly lower contrast vintage "silver sheen" throughout.

Forget the subject matter, but does this look familiar?

[Show spoiler]

High key, yet no inky blacks or sizzling whites. And for all practical purposes grainless. Yet the detail is still there. That was the look of vintage silver.

Is it possible that we've been seeing this classic film printed and tranferred incorrectly all these years...that when Pathé went back to the original negative to rescan they discovered a different original look? I'd like to hear from a film archivist for the final word on the accuracy of this transfer.

I any case, although I had to get used to the look of this Criterion Blu-ray, I wasn't put off by it. As you say, it's "dreaminess" very much suits this subject.

Those are my thoughts as well. Les Visiteurs du Soir, made 3 years prior, does have a natural grain structure, so I'm pretty convinced some of it has been scrubbed. But Children's negative was in much worse shape and needed a huge restoration, lots of digital cutting and pasting, etc. So I guess we won't know how much grain was taken out unless we get a potentially un-altered version someday down the line.

[giannirenna]

Originally Posted by blkhrt

New newsletter clue:



"wacky lambs"

You guys, those are clearly pony boys...it's the outsiders! (end of sarcasm)

[starman15317]

You know, Badlands is one of my favorite Bruce Springsteen songs.

But seriously, if Criterion releases Badlands then I'm all for it. I just watched the movie the other day and enjoyed it a lot. I don't think WB actually owns the rights though. The DVD says Copyright 1974 Waltman-Badlands Productions or something like that. If anyone has the DVD, cam you fill us in on the copyright owners?

[ROclockCK]

Originally Posted by retablo

Those are my thoughts as well. Les Visiteurs du Soir, made 3 years prior, does have a natural grain structure, so I'm pretty convinced some of it has been scrubbed. But Children's negative was in much worse shape and needed a huge restoration, lots of digital cutting and pasting, etc. So I guess we won't know how much grain was taken out unless we get a potentially un-altered version someday down the line.

I was referring more to the grayscale values, plus to a lesser degree the overall graininess retablo. In the Restoration Demo those don't change drastically "before" and "after" (e.g. 1:18 and 3:15 - 3:17). So I'm not sure what to think. Image clean-up and stabilization have certainly occurred, but I would be reluctant to call it "scrubbing"...a term I ususally equate with over manipulation and degradation of the source, resulting in a noticeable loss of detail. And yet the detail has held here...I can't detect any significant loss of resolution. Of course, we're talking about a YouTube vid, but still...

What those comparison shots suggest to me is a film that was more heavily "filtered" when originally shot.

[RojD]

Originally Posted by ROclockCK

Absolutely agree retablo. Carné's Les enfants du paradis happens to be one of my all-time faves, although I've only seen it on film twice...once in the mid 80s via revival (and a somewhat battered 16mm print), and once before that in the early 70s via a 35mm archival academic print struck in the 60s. The latter was actually much closer to the look of this Blu-ray, with a distinctly lower contrast vintage "silver sheen" throughout.

...

High key, yet no inky blacks or sizzling whites. And for all practical purposes grainless. Yet the detail is still there. That was the look of vintage silver.

Is it possible that we've been seeing this classic film printed and transferred incorrectly all these years...that when Pathé went back to the original negative to rescan they discovered a different original look? I'd like to hear from a film archivist for the final word on the accuracy of this transfer.

I any case, although I had to get used to the look of this Criterion Blu-ray, I wasn't put off by it. As you say, its "dreaminess" very much suits this subject.

Thanks for putting that so clearly. I'm not the least disappointed; on the contrary, I feel like this must have been what the original silver looked like. You see this same excessive gauzy, soft focus in b/w still photography, too, with the grain intact. Is it my imagination, or are we seeing more films from the 40s making it to blu? I'd guess this same issue is going to come up on some of those restorations, like the ones from Kino and Olive.

Meanwhile, I feel like blu has finally come of age now that we have Rules of the Game and Children of Paradise. Now what about Le quai des brumes, Hôtel du Nord, and Le jour se lève? These aren't minor projects.....they're great movies and essential Poetic Realism. Films like these really helped me get what's happening in neorealist stuff like Umberto D. I'd love to see 'em on blu.

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by ROclockCK

I was referring more to the grayscale values, plus to a lesser degree the overall graininess retablo. In the Restoration Demo those don't change drastically "before" and "after" (e.g. 1:18 and 3:15 - 3:17). So I'm not sure what to think. Image clean-up and stabilization has certainly occurred, but I would be reluctant to call it "scrubbing"...a term I ususally equate with over manipulation and degradation of the source, resulting in a noticeable loss of detail. And yet the detail has held here...I can't detect any significant loss of resolution. Of course, we're talking about a YouTube vid, but still...
What those comparison shots suggest to me is a film that was more heavily "filtered" when originally shot.

Nothing really could be further from the truth.

After the initial scan, very strong filtering was applied, which drastically affected detail as well as color stability (in fact color grading is so poor that there are entire sequences where what is present are large blocks of gray). Whether you are reluctant to call it what it is or not, detail is most definitely not "held here". Without the heavy filtering (degrainin/denoising) this film would have looked magnificent as it is quite obvious that the basics after the 4K scan were very strong.

To sum it all up, pretty much everything has gone wrong with this transfer - from detail to color grading.

Pro-B

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by RojD

Thanks for putting that so clearly. I'm not the least disappointed; on the contrary, I feel like this must have been what the original silver looked like. You see this same excessive gauzy, soft focus in b/w still photography, too, with the grain intact.

That post is actually extremely misleading - for reasons I have noted above.

Soft photography and softness produced by heavy filtering are two completely different things. Pathe's new master suffers from very heavy filtering, and the softness you are seeing is a byproduct of it. It has absolutely nothing to do with the original photography.

The grain is also not intact. What you see the overwhelming majority of the time are the effects of the compromising filtering. This is extremely easy to see, for example, in the lower left corner in the capture below (see the woman's face). This isn't "grain".

Finally, contrary to the popular belief shared on forums, 4K scans do not expose grain. On the contrary, the higher the resolution/scan, the less grain you will see, because the image gets "tighter". This is why when some reviewers can't see "grain" on 4K scans/releases they go in "must have been DNR" mode. Prime example is this excellent release, which generated some pretty funny comments:

https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Break.../21311/#Review


https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/scree...077&position=7


Pro-B

[ROclockCK]

Originally Posted by RojD

Thanks for putting that so clearly. I'm not the least disappointed; on the contrary, I feel like this must have been what the original silver looked like. You see this same excessive gauzy, soft focus in b/w still photography, too, with the grain intact.

Me neither, RojD. The aesthetic of this Blu just provoked those thoughts...more questions, really. But as I said, I'd like to hear from an actual film archivist for the final word on this subject. I mean, if this transfer is such an affront to film history, I'm sure those guys won't stay mute for long...

But hey...the good news is, nothing on this disc could have been worse than that gnarly 16mm film print I saw back in the 80s. And yet, even in that condition, it didn't really matter...regardless how you present a truly great film, its magic will always endure.

[SpiderBaby]

Criterion dumped a bunch of Rossellini, Ozu, Oshima, Rivette, etc on Hulu just now (Voyage to Italy, etc). In other news, what did they announce for December again? I can't remember.

They just put up Maria Braun and Veronika Voss (not Lola though) of the BRD Trilogy (hope it's a sign) and Fear Eats The Soul.

[TJS_Blu]

Originally Posted by SpiderBaby

In other news, what did they announce for December again? I can't remember.

Brazil
Purple Noon
The Qatsi Trilogy
Following

[SpiderBaby]

Originally Posted by TJS_Blu

Brazil
Purple Noon
The Qatsi Trilogy
Following

Tha..........Thanks. Almost fell asleep there.

[Scottie]

They need to just announce:

Badlands
Blob
Grey Gardens
On The Waterfront
Wild Strawberries
Y Tu Mama Tambien

And be done with it.

That way we can have new things to look forward to.

[Darkcritic]

Originally Posted by SpiderBaby

Criterion dumped a bunch of Rossellini, Ozu, Oshima, Rivette, etc on Hulu just now (Voyage to Italy, etc). In other news, what did they announce for December again? I can't remember.

They just put up Maria Braun and Veronika Voss (not Lola though) of the BRD Trilogy (hope it's a sign) and Fear Eats The Soul.

Originally Posted by SpiderBaby

Tha..........Thanks. Almost fell asleep there.

These are by far the most exciting news I have heard from them all year. They added Oshima's Boy ! That title alone make this "news of the year" for me. I hope Criterion release this and the other as soon as possible and on mainline releases. If Boy and the rest of the Oshima's are dumped on an Eclipse I wouldn't be able to take it . I really, really, really hope Criterion is not just messing with us on this.

[thelberg]

Originally Posted by SpiderBaby

Criterion dumped a bunch of Rossellini, Ozu, Oshima, Rivette, etc on Hulu just now (Voyage to Italy, etc). In other news, what did they announce for December again? I can't remember.

They just put up Maria Braun and Veronika Voss (not Lola though) of the BRD Trilogy (hope it's a sign) and Fear Eats The Soul.

I'm no Criterion hater and I look forward to what they put out each month, but it's getting increasingly frustrating how they dump these wonderful films on Hulu. While it's great that there is an avenue to actually see them (Voyage to Italy!!) it feels like they are stuck in limbo. A Man Escaped, one of my all time favorites and a masterpiece, has been on Hulu for a year and I fear it may not ever see a proper Blu-ray release.

I understand that Criterion tries to "curate" each month's slate of releases to have something for everyone and that they're probably trying to ensure the longevity of their label by holding out on the "good stuff." But the kinds of films they just dumped on Hulu used to be their bread and butter. I hope these movies all get Blu-ray or Eclipse releases and aren't stuck in this Hulu netherworld indefinitely.

[Yami]

Boy is perhaps Oshima's best film. Great news, I've long wanted a Criterion release so I hope it doesn't take too long.

[Trekkie313]

HEAVENS GATE **** YEAH!!!!

[easyblu]

Originally Posted by SpiderBaby

Criterion dumped a bunch of Rossellini, Ozu, Oshima, Rivette, etc on Hulu just now (Voyage to Italy, etc). In other news, what did they announce for December again? I can't remember.

They just put up Maria Braun and Veronika Voss (not Lola though) of the BRD Trilogy (hope it's a sign) and Fear Eats The Soul.

Sweet, thanks for this post. Just made my day after a particularly bad Friday. I've been wanting to see some of those Ozu films for the longest time. Hopefully an Eclipse set is coming, too.

[Brad1963]

Originally Posted by iScottie

They need to just announce:

Badlands
Blob
Grey Gardens
On The Waterfront
Wild Strawberries
Y Tu Mama Tambien

And be done with it.

That way we can have new things to look forward to.

Until the New Year's drawing and we get a dozen more hints.