2025 Major League Baseball Thread

[dawgyjay]

Originally Posted by sycro

I think Smoltz will sit a couple years since he doesn't have the stats as a starter or a closer, but does for his career when both are considered.

I agree on Smoltz but I think he'll make it year one. He should.

Originally Posted by sycro

And if you exclude Glavine's numbers playing for those terrible Mets teams, his numbers are even better. And it looks like the BBWA thinks you're the crazy one given that 70% voted for Glavine and not Mussina.

There's a lot of talk about the 10 vote limit as the reason for a lot of the drops. Part of it's the process, part of it is the large number of deserving guys on the ballot. Stands to reason that the votes get spread thin after the 3 who got in. I think Glavine is a sexy pick b/c of the win total and the 2 CYs. Winning CYs is overrated. There are several guys in the HOF who didn't win a CY.

And I think we can all agree that the BBWAA doesn't always demonstrate good decision making. Maddux was 16 votes shy of 100%. That in itself is ridiculous. Dan LeBetard giving his vote to Deadspin. The guy who only voted for Jack Morris. They're quite the respectable bunch.

[sycro]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

You do know Joe is going in as a Yankee. Just saying.

Duh... he was terrible everywhere else he managed.

I'd also forgotten that LaRussa played for the Braves.

[sycro]

Originally Posted by dawgyjay

I agree on Smoltz but I think he'll make it year one. He should.



There's a lot of talk about the 10 vote limit as the reason for a lot of the drops. Part of it's the process, part of it is the large number of deserving guys on the ballot. Stands to reason that the votes get spread thin after the 3 who got in. I think Glavine is a sexy pick b/c of the win total and the 2 CYs. Winning CYs is overrated. There are several guys in the HOF who didn't win a CY.

And I think we can all agree that the BBWAA doesn't always demonstrate good decision making. Maddux was 16 votes shy of 100%. That in itself is ridiculous. Dan LeBetard giving his vote to Deadspin. The guy who only voted for Jack Morris. They're quite the respectable bunch.

Cys are overrated when they are an aberration by a guy who otherwise is an okay pitcher (see Jack McDowell), but when they show a consistency or dominance in your career? What you forget when you say that Glavine won 2 and was top 6 4 other times is that if one of the greatest pitchers of all-time, Greg Maddux, hadn't been playing in the same league at the time, he definitely wins at least 1 more (1992) and it could be argued he gets some of Maddux's votes in both 93 and 95. If Maddux wasn't as dominant as he was during that time, it's plausible that Glavine is a 5-time Cy Young award winner. The other year he was top 3? He finished 2nd to another future first ballot HOFer, Randy Johnson.

And Dan LeBatard is less of a joke than the system.

And I went and looked at Mussina's "top 6" years. He received a total of 3 first place votes over those 9 seasons (by comparison, Tom Glavine received 4 in 1993, when he finished 3rd). He received less than 6 total votes in 5 of his "top 6 finishes", 4 of which were 1 or 2 votes.

[sycro]

Another thing I just realized, all 6 of the inductees were elected in their first year of eligibility, as all 3 managers were up for the first time as well.

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by sycro

Duh... he was terrible everywhere else he managed.

I'd also forgotten that LaRussa played for the Braves.

He wasn't terrible with the Dodgers

[sycro]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

He wasn't terrible with the Dodgers

Okay, so he was terrible everywhere before the Yankees.

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by sycro

Okay, so he was terrible everywhere before the Yankees.

He wasn't terrible in Atlanta. He was mediocre.

[sycro]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

He wasn't terrible in Atlanta. He was mediocre.

Only because he had Murphy in his prime. But either way, he had a bad managerial run until the Yankees helped make him a HoFer.

[Hatter]

I'm pleased that Frank Thomas made it in first ballot but 84% was kind of low for a player of his caliber.

I was not pleased however to see Biggio get screwed again along with Piazza, Edgar Martinez and Bagwell. Larry Walker dropping to 10% isn't a good sign either for him. I guess Rockies players may be doomed to never make it to the hall if that's how they treat a great five tool and Colorado's first superstar player.

[Baseballking888]

I am encouraged that Piazza actually increased his vote total while so many decreased. I'm not sure if he'll get into the HOF next year with 3 "locks" (Johnson, Pedro, Smoltz) set to go in with Biggio probably going over the hump. But 2016 might be his year. Griffey is the only "lock" that year. Wagner could get in as well but voters seem to be rather stingy with closers.

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by Baseballking888

I am encouraged that Piazza actually increased his vote total while so many decreased. I'm not sure if he'll get into the HOF next year with 3 "locks" (Johnson, Pedro, Smoltz) set to go in with Biggio probably going over the hump. But 2016 might be his year. Griffey is the only "lock" that year. Wagner could get in as well but voters seem to be rather stingy with closers.

Wagner won't be a first ballot guy and it'll take awhile before he makes it if he does. It'll be prime time for players like Piazza Bagwell and possibly Moose.

[A Sith Lord?]

I think if Eckersley makes it on the first ballot, I don't see how Smoltz doesn't.

Smoltz has a Cy Young in a rotation with Glavine and Maddux.

He also has arguably one of the best playoff records for a starter in the playoffs.

Not because I'm a Braves fan, but Smoltz has as many wins as Pedro Martinez, and he also was arguably the best closer in the national league for 3 years before going back to the rotation and having 3 successful years as a starter before his final shoulder surgery.

I think the fact it's surfaced that Gagne took PED's during his closing peak, makes Smoltz look even better.

200 wins, 150 saves. He also was one of the most charitable guys off the field winning the Clemente and Rickey awards. If the HOF takes away credentials from guys because their PED usage is a reflection of character, then Smoltz's charitable work should also help him as well.

[A Sith Lord?]

Originally Posted by dawgyjay

I'm sure that if Moose hung around to get to 300 wins he'd be labeled a compiler and people would argue the only reason he reached 300 wins is b/c he pitched 21 years. The Cy Young argument has always struck me as ridiculous. There are plenty of guys who are good one year and then gone the next. Moose was consistent. Maybe he didn't always have the best season a pitcher had but he was always consistent, which is something most HOFers have in common. As for the lack of rings, it's too bad for him that Mariano Rivera blew a save game 7 back in 2001. He and Glavine have very similar postseason #s.

I'd take MM over TG every day of the week. He was the better pitcher and if you consider his #s were 100% in the AL East compared to Glavine pitching in the NL it's even more impressive. It's not like he pitched for 10 years. 18 years is a pretty long run. It's crazy that Glavine will be 90% of the vote and Moose will be lucky to break 30%.

I think Glavine's World Series MVP in which he shut down that Indians offense in Game 6 for 8IP and 1 hit in a 1-0 game is helpful.

If Moose was consistent, then Glavine was consistent as well. I know their WAR are roughly similar but I actually think the fact Moose pitched in the AL hurts him more and it helps Glavine more that he pitched in the NL.

Glavine doesn't get enough respect but he was consistently great for years. He doesn't have the strikeout totals, but there's a reason has has 300 wins. I know wins are no longer a popular stat for saber guys, but the fact Maddux has 355 wins says a lot when you consider he pitched in the era of starters not pitching deep into games and the importance of 7th,8th, and 9th inning pitchers now. Glavine and Maddux are very similar in their styles. Nobody would ever expect Maddux to be 10th all time in strikeouts, because he's never been considered an overpowering guy and he's never been thought of as a strikeout guy.

Glavine was equally as efficient as Maddux, just look at their CG and SO numbers.

I like Moose, but being quietly very good under the radar is not the equivalent to being dominant. Dominant pitchers always get recognition. Even Felix gets recognition despite the fact he plays for a crap team all of his career basically and he's in Seattle which nobody in the baseball media cares about.


One thing I think writers take into consideration too, is loyalty. Moose went to NY to chase rings (and unfortunately missed on the boat twice in 2001 and 2009 the year he retired). Glavine spent almost all of his years in Atlanta, the reason he left was because the team could no longer afford to keep Maddux AND Glavine. Maddux left the Cubs to chase money with the Braves, but the fact he was a hell of a better pitcher than Moose or Glavine excuses that I suppose.

[A Sith Lord?]

Mindblown.

[A Sith Lord?]

For the record I think Moose will get in eventually because he played for the Yankees. If he had played for the Orioles and Blue Jays his entire career I don't think he gets in. Just like I don't think Halladay will get in on first ballot because his peak was short even though he was consistently good for years.

Schilling will get in on postseason numbers IMO. The regular season stats aren't there other than having the best K/BB ratio in history. Schilling should get in just because he brought Boston 2 championships, and media loves heroes. They also love NYY and BOS.

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by MasturB

For the record I think Moose will get in eventually because he played for the Yankees. If he had played for the Orioles and Blue Jays his entire career I don't think he gets in. Just like I don't think Halladay will get in on first ballot because his peak was short even though he was consistently good for years.

Schilling will get in on postseason numbers IMO. The regular season stats aren't there other than having the best K/BB ratio in history. Schilling should get in just because he brought Boston 2 championships, and media loves heroes. They also love NYY and BOS.

Unlike Moose, Doc won Cy Youngs in both leagues.

[A Sith Lord?]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

Unlike Moose, Doc won Cy Youngs in both leagues.

It doesn't matter in the end honestly.

The Hall is becoming diluted with guys like Jim Rice (who like Dale Murphy,should be in the Hall of Very Good). Blyleven was never really a dominant guy either, and accumulated his 287 from sheer longevity. At least Biggio was one of the best 2B in his peak, can't really say the same for Blyleven. Do I think longevity should be factored in to someone's credentials? Absolutely, but I do think you have to look at their prime peaks and see how dominant they were.

Moose is the epitome of "borderline" guy.

Schilling may have less wins, but he has one of the best post season resume's of all time and finished 2nd in Cy Young three times to Randy Johnson. Also a co-WS MVP with RJ.

Plus the fact Schilling is kind of a media darling, and is a legend in Boston for help bringing not one, but two championships to Fenway. (Not that I care about the bloody sock and things like that, but I know it's just something the old guard of baseball loves. Historic moments like that).

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by MasturB

It doesn't matter in the end honestly.

The Hall is becoming diluted with guys like Jim Rice (who like Dale Murphy,should be in the Hall of Very Good). Blyleven was never really a dominant guy either, and accumulated his 287 from sheer longevity. At least Biggio was one of the best 2B in his peak, can't really say the same for Blyleven. Do I think longevity should be factored in to someone's credentials? Absolutely, but I do think you have to look at their prime peaks and see how dominant they were.

Moose is the epitome of "borderline" guy.

Schilling may have less wins, but he has one of the best post season resume's of all time and finished 2nd in Cy Young three times to Randy Johnson. Also a co-WS MVP with RJ.

Plus the fact Schilling is kind of a media darling, and is a legend in Boston for help bringing not one, but two championships to Fenway. (Not that I care about the bloody sock and things like that, but I know it's just something the old guard of baseball loves. Historic moments like that).

And what does that have to do with Doc lol

[A Sith Lord?]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

And what does that have to do with Doc lol

Nothing really, I was moreso making the point at Moose.

I think Doc will get in on 2nd ballot, possibly on first depending on how logjammed the ballot is the year he goes in. Halladay, Pettite, Rivera, and Helton should all be eligible that year.

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by MasturB

Nothing really, I was moreso making the point at Moose.

I think Doc will get in on 2nd ballot, possibly on first depending on how logjammed the ballot is the year he goes in. Halladay, Pettite, Rivera, and Helton should all be eligible that year.

Pettitte and Helton will be nos on the first ballot. Doc would have a better chance than both of those players IMO. But I agree that it would depend on how packed the ballot is.