8K discussion thread

[Blu-rayNut51]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

The Road Ahead to 8K UHD - YouTube

Please note the recording parties device could not capture the conversation cleanly for some speakers, have to strain your ears to listen. At 13:00 Robert showed off a coming soon from Sharp DSLR camera capable of 8K shots and video if I heard correctly.

Hope Robert can provide a better video.

Looking online its likely their Sharp 8K Micro Four Thirds camera thats he holding.

Not capturing the conversation cleanly of the 5 speakers at that CES seminar on 8k's future, must be one of the greatest understatements of this New Year!

It's hilarious that a presentation involving cutting edge technology up at the level of 8k video tech, was the focus of audio recording technology that couldn't even capture the voices of 5 people with sound clarity as good as that of most Hollywood movies of 1934, which was only more than 85 years ago!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Correct, I had Sharp's new native 8K HDR camera at CES! It was on loan from my friends at Sharp and my daughter, Lianne and I walked up and down Las Vegas Blvd shooting 8K HDR video with 10bit, BT2020 color and we had the most fun imaginable.

This world's first affordable Prosumer native 8K HDR camera will launch in the USA the second half of this year and I'm projecting we'll have a retail price of under $4k....

Previously, I expressed some concern about its DR (for wedding videographers, serious amateurs and such) - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...y#post17074285

did you have an opportunity to test it under different conditions?

[Robert Zohn]

Sorry I'm at the airport waiting for my redeye flight home and the Wi Fi is useless and we're boarding now.

Decoding was lightly discussed. I believe all Sony, LG and Samsung 2020 8K TVs are AV1 capable.

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Previously, I expressed some concern about its DR (for wedding videographers, serious amateurs and such) - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...y#post17074285

did you have an opportunity to test it under different conditions?

Most of our 8K HDR recording was a night. I played with the ISO settings to get the exposures and dynamic range as best as possible with the various Vegas bright lights.

[Blu-rayNut51]

Originally Posted by koberulz

I'm still waiting for you to explain why this applies to HFR but nor 4K or 8K.

I feel I owe you an apology , koberulz, because somehow I must have messed up and overlooked you having posed your question that relates to 4k and 8k.

Because since the total population of 1080p TVs (plus good old lowly 720p TVs) still greatly outnumbers the total of 4k TVs that Americans have in their homes, 4k telecasts would simply present signals that those lower resolution TVs would not be compatible with.

Because, IMO, the introduction of 4k TVs was sort of a rush job because 1. The TV industry suddenly needed something new to sell to consumers when 3D at home turned out to be a bust. (Yeah I know, some people like 3D TVs) and 2.- Boosting resolution to 4k with LCD TVs would be relatively cheap & and easy to do, so folks at companies like Samsung, smelled potential profits to be made from selling 4k TVs.

But, in my view, a major problem was that even when TV designers came up with designs for the 1080p TVs that closely preceded the intro of 4k models, 4k came along so fast that designers could not build in some sort of compatibility into the tuners of 1080p TVs so those units could someday accept 4k signals, & down convert 4k signals into 1080p video. I understand that all of this basically stems from the fact that the TV/broadcast industries have dragged their feet on adopting a new broadcast standard that will handle 4k broadcasting. Which is really SAD, since that means that whenever such a standard is finally adopted, most of the people who already own 4k TVs will have to buy new tuners for their flat panels, so that they will be compatible with the new standard.

It's no wonder that CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, and even HBO, the home of big budget productions like Game of Thrones, are all networks that seem to be in NO rush to get into doing 4k telecasting of their hit programs. And one thing that comes to mind is the favorite TV show of our 23 year old granddaughter, which is The Big Bang Theory. I'm absolutely sure that our granddaughter, who has watched that show for years, ever since staying with us during high school, when she viewed the show on a 58 inch Panny 1080p plasma, that still serves as the living room TV, is now one young lady who couldn't care less if The Big Bang Theory will ever be shown in 4k. And I'd bet that over 90% of Americans wouldn't care either, if their favorite TV comedies are never upgraded to 4k.

BTW, what a HUGE contrast that today's lack of 4k telecasts provides to how quickly that America's major TV networks started presenting sporting events, and their nighttime lineups of hit TV shows, reasonably soon after the first high def TVs were introduced to the American market in August of 1998. Since, for example, by the late fall of 1998, New York City's CBS station had already presented an NFL game in high definition. And all throughout 1999, magazines such as Home Theater and Video Magazine were listing the increasing number of network TV shows which were becoming available in high-def. So within ONLY 1 year after high-definition TVs came onto the American market, people could use those new TVs to actually enjoy some high-def telecasts. But today, about 8 years after the first UHD 4k TVs started selling in the U.S. in 2012, we still have no 4k broadcasts, which is a really pathetic situation! Certainly today, many people who own some of the larger 4k TVs which have been sold, must at least be hoping that sporting events will finally be telecast in 4k, at a future time which is actually soon enough that the vision of those folks will still be capable of allowing them to notice 4k's picture quality improvement!

As previously mentioned in an earlier post, during this past Spring, it was reported that of the total sales in the U.S. of the 3 video disc formats, UHD 4k Blu-ray discs were only accounting for 5.3% of current disc sales, with standard def DVDs accounting for 57% of total disc sales, and 1080p Blu-ray accounting for the remaining 37.7% of the sales of video discs in America's market.

So considering that low level of 4k disc sales, in a total market for discs of the 3 video formats, which is shrinking each year, combined with that lack of 4k telecasts of America's most popular shows, like Game of Thrones, no one who considers those facts could honestly say that 4k has managed to be a big success in the U.S. so far. So IMO, and I suppose, in that of many other folks, the TV manufacturers putting 8k TVs on the market this soon, is quite a serious case of putting the cart way before the horse!

[Blu-rayNut51]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Sorry I'm at the airport waiting for my redeye flight home and the Wi Fi is useless and we're boarding now.

Decoding was lightly discussed. I believe all Sony, LG and Samsung 2020 8K TVs are AV1 capable.

Well Sir, your taking that redeye flight is sure a testament to your dedication to the video hobby that all of us on this forum seem to enjoy.

And Mr Zohn, before I forget to do so, I don't want to miss an opportunity to thank you for your annual hosting of the Flat Panel TV Shootout. Because thanks to one of those events that you held in September 2010, I ended up buying the finest TV of its time, a unit with PQ still drawing praise from friends.

And Sir, after you've caught up in getting some much needed rest, perhaps you might answer a question or two I have regarding the three 8k flat panels you have in your store, which you recently described here as certainly displaying superior clarity and detail, compared to similar sized 4k panels.

Of course, since 8k TVs have 4 times as many pixels as 4k units have, I would definitely expect to see that same improvement with the 8k panels that you are able to see, if I was close enough to those TVs.

So it was hard for me, as I'm sure it was for my fellow forum members, to avoid noticing that you did not identify a specific viewing distance at which you could definitely see the extra clarity & detail of 8k panels compared to 4k units.

Now Sir, I don't want to engage in a lengthy discussion of vision charts, a topic that most forum members are probably sick of.

But to make my point, I need to note a vision chart that was published in Forbes Magazine, listing 2.0 feet as the optimal distance for those with 20/20 vision to see the clarity & detail advantage of 8k displayed on a 65 inch 8k TV.

Now many folks hate vision charts because they think that the studies that led to their creation were flawed. So let's assume that those researchers were in error by a huge 100%, meaning that folks with 20/20 vision (which is better than average) need to be within 4.0 feet, instead of only 2.0 feet, from 65" 8k TVs to be able to appreciate 8k. It's doubtful that researchers could have made a greater error than that.

So if most people will need to be within 4 feet of a 65" 8k TV to appreciate its detail advantage, simple math tells us that for 85" 8k TVs, those same people must be within 5 and a quarter feet to be able to see 8k's clarity & detail advantage. So even multiplying the distances given on vision charts by TWO has folks with good vision needing to be less than 5 and a half feet from an 85" 8k TV to see its detail & clarity improvement.

Therefore, my main question for you, Mr Zohn, is, at home would you watch a movie by sitting just 5 and a quarter feet from an 85 inch 8k TV? I sure know that such a viewing distance would be intolerable for me, and those I know, and we should remember, that's even TWICE as FAR as the closer viewing distance that vision charts list for folks with good vision, needing to be, in order to fully appreciate 8k's extra detail and clarity, compared to what 4k offers.

Yes, I'll finally have to admit to being very impressed by Blu-ray.com allowing genuine candor & honesty, if this post is allowed to appear on this 8k discussion thread, without soon being deleted by someone!

[Lee A Stewart]

Updated: Comcast Switches & Now Says No Super Bowl 2020 In 4K

https://tvanswerman.com/2020/01/09/c...wl-2020-in-4k/

[koberulz]

Originally Posted by Blu-rayNut51

Because since the total population of 1080p TVs (plus good old lowly 720p TVs) still greatly outnumbers the total of 4k TVs that Americans have in their homes, 4k telecasts would simply present signals that those lower resolution TVs would not be compatible with.

How does this differ from broadcasting in HFR though?

And yeah, why does this keep getting deleted?

[JohnAV]

THE MOST IMPORTANT TVS OF CES 2020 WERE FINALLY FOR THE MASSES - Verge

THE HIGH-END (SLOWLY) GOES MIDRANGE
OLED TVs are a good example of high-end tech entering the midrange. Just a few years ago, they were unaffordable for the vast majority of people, but last year, we started to see LG’s sets getting discounted to that all-important $1,000 mark, which is the upper price limit for 90 percent of buyers, according to NPD sales data. Even then, OLED TVs were still only available in bigger TV sizes, presenting another barrier to entry for many households.

At CES 2020, however, we saw signs of change. Vizio, which has a strength in affordable TVs, announced that it will be releasing an OLED model this year, while Chinese manufacturer Skyworth said it plans to enter the US market for the first time with an OLED TV in tow. Meanwhile, LG and Sony, which have been producing OLED TVs for years, announced 48-inch versions, making it the first time we’ve seen 4K OLED TVs under 55 inches in size. Pricing for all three models is yet to be announced, but all the signs point toward the technology inching toward mass-market affordability and accessibility.

VIZIO HAS MADE THE UPGRADE TO HDMI 2.1 ACROSS ITS WHOLE LINEUP
Also continuing to emerge at this year’s show is the HDMI 2.1 standard, which is important not so much because of its topline specs (such as support for 4K at 120Hz or 8K at 60Hz), but because of the new features it brings to the table. Features like variable refresh rate technology will be a massive benefit for gamers once game consoles catch up, while others, like support for Dynamic HDR, will deliver picture quality improvements for TV and film content.

These features aren’t completely new. Variable refresh rate tech has been available on PC monitors for a few years, while Dynamic HDR is available via the dynamic metadata baked into the Dolby Vision and HDR10+ standards. But HDMI 2.1 has the potential to one day turn these into basic, standardized TV features. In theory, you won’t have to make sure you buy certain models of Samsung TVs to pair with your Xbox One or LG TVs to pair with your Nvidia-equipped gaming PC to get variable refresh rates. Instead, you should eventually just be able to mix and match HDMI 2.1 devices to get these benefits as standard.

That’s the theoretical future, and at CES 2020, we’re seeing TV manufacturers inch toward it. Vizio says it’s made the upgrade across its lineup, while LG and Sony have confirmed support in their 8K models. But we’ve still got a long way to go before you can take all of HDMI 2.1’s features for granted. TV manufacturers are allowed to pick and choose which of the standard’s features they support, and a lot of them are currently doing exactly that. In a rundown of Sony’s A8H 4K OLED, for example, HDTVTest notes that Sony’s latest 4K OLED will support just one of the HDMI 2.1 standard’s many features: eARC. We’ve still got a long way to go before HDMI 2.1’s benefits become ubiquitous.

[Blu-rayNut51]

[QUOTE=koberulz;17241839]How does this differ from broadcasting in HFR though?


With all due respect, koberulz, you must be aware that you were just playing with me, when you made your silly comparison between broadcasting in HFR, and the FOLLOWING statement I'd written about how the 1080p and 720p TVs that Americans own, wouldn't be able to produce pictures with 4k broadcast signals:

"Because since the total population of 1080p TVs (plus good old lowly 720p TVs) still greatly outnumbers the total of 4k TVs that Americans have in their homes, 4k telecasts would simply present signals that those lower resolution TVs would not be compatible with."

But koberulz, HFR broadcasts, that you were referring to, are a totally different situation, since in spite of me WRONGLY believing that current TVs in American homes wouldn't accept higher frame rates, until people like our fellow forum member, Lee A Stewart, set me straight on the subject, that finally allowed me to realize that TVs which Americans have had for quite a while, ARE capable of handling frame rates somewhat higher than those some broadcasters now use.

[Lee A Stewart]

At this moment in time there are no TVs in the USA that are compatible with the new ATSC 3.0 NextGen TV Broadcast system. So if there was a decision to use HFR (120 FPS) for sports, now would be the time to implement it.

When 3.0 tuner boxes become available either late this year or early next year it would be simple to have them be compatible with existing HDTV and UHDTVs lower frame rates.

ATSC 3.0 is a voluntary upgrade for broadcasters. There is no and will not be mandated by the FCC. That was decided years ago.

[JohnAV]

There is also a ATSC 3.0 breaking news topic to read also alternatively.

[JohnAV]

While TV vendors have marketed that 5G connectivity is ideal for future 8k, this article describes how the sub 6 GHz low band 5G is working

AT&T Reveals Low-Band 5G Secrets, Explains Why 4G Can Be Faster Than 5G - PCMagazine

AT&T's new low-band 5G network covers 19 metro areas—but you may not see a 5G icon on your phone if 4G is just as fast. I got AT&T's network expert to explain.

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by Blu-rayNut51

Well Sir, your taking that redeye flight is sure a testament to your dedication to the video hobby that all of us on this forum seem to enjoy.

And Mr Zohn, before I forget to do so, I don't want to miss an opportunity to thank you for your annual hosting of the Flat Panel TV Shootout. Because thanks to one of those events that you held in September 2010, I ended up buying the finest TV of its time, a unit with PQ still drawing praise from friends.

And Sir, after you've caught up in getting some much needed rest, perhaps you might answer a question or two I have regarding the three 8k flat panels you have in your store, which you recently described here as certainly displaying superior clarity and detail, compared to similar sized 4k panels.

Of course, since 8k TVs have 4 times as many pixels as 4k units have, I would definitely expect to see that same improvement with the 8k panels that you are able to see, if I was close enough to those TVs.

So it was hard for me, as I'm sure it was for my fellow forum members, to avoid noticing that you did not identify a specific viewing distance at which you could definitely see the extra clarity & detail of 8k panels compared to 4k units.

Now Sir, I don't want to engage in a lengthy discussion of vision charts, a topic that most forum members are probably sick of.

But to make my point, I need to note a vision chart that was published in Forbes Magazine, listing 2.0 feet as the optimal distance for those with 20/20 vision to see the clarity & detail advantage of 8k displayed on a 65 inch 8k TV.

Now many folks hate vision charts because they think that the studies that led to their creation were flawed. So let's assume that those researchers were in error by a huge 100%, meaning that folks with 20/20 vision (which is better than average) need to be within 4.0 feet, instead of only 2.0 feet, from 65" 8k TVs to be able to appreciate 8k. It's doubtful that researchers could have made a greater error than that.

So if most people will need to be within 4 feet of a 65" 8k TV to appreciate its detail advantage, simple math tells us that for 85" 8k TVs, those same people must be within 5 and a quarter feet to be able to see 8k's clarity & detail advantage. So even multiplying the distances given on vision charts by TWO has folks with good vision needing to be less than 5 and a half feet from an 85" 8k TV to see its detail & clarity improvement.

Therefore, my main question for you, Mr Zohn, is, at home would you watch a movie by sitting just 5 and a quarter feet from an 85 inch 8k TV? I sure know that such a viewing distance would be intolerable for me, and those I know, and we should remember, that's even TWICE as FAR as the closer viewing distance that vision charts list for folks with good vision, needing to be, in order to fully appreciate 8k's extra detail and clarity, compared to what 4k offers.

Yes, I'll finally have to admit to being very impressed by Blu-ray.com allowing genuine candor & honesty, if this post is allowed to appear on this 8k discussion thread, without soon being deleted by someone!

Glad you brought this up as it's an important discussion and I wanted to speak about it again.

First, as I said publicly at my first and 2nd 8K panel discussions it's not only the increased resolution that makes the 8K TVs perform appreciably better than the best 4K TVs. All of the 8K TV manufacturers are using the very best panels and video processors. So color fidelity, color volume, motion resolution and up-conversion of lower resolution content look appreciably better on any of the new 8K TVs then the best in class 4K TVs and that's true and different then the 20/20 acuity of the human visual system ability.

Second, to directly answer your question of the value of 8K resolution by itself, when viewing your 8K TV at distances further back from screen then the chart you referenced. One attribute to consider is to think of a circle or any curved image. With a display of the same size, one 4K and the other 8K the pixel structure in the 4K is 4x larger and the spaces between the pixels is significantly larger so a circle will have jagged edges and when displayed on the same size 8K screen the circle will be smoother. These unavoidable anomalies are inherent in lower resolution displays.

Third, is best explained by my fellow panelist and world expert video scientist, Florian Friedrich. Listen to Florian at the 8:50 and 16.00 mark. Here's the link to yesterday's 8K panel discussion at CES.

https://youtu.be/JJVlN_qvBk8

[Geoff D]

But wouldn't the circle be smoother yet again on a 16K set?

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But wouldn't the circle be smoother yet again on a 16K set?

And at normal viewing distance would you see it?

[Blu-rayNut51]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

And at normal viewing distance would you see it?

Yes, one really has to wonder.

I mean Mr Zohn's explanation about the greater gaps between pixels with 4k compared with 8k, causing the figure of a circle displayed in 4k to have more jagged edges than if that same circle was represented in 8k, makes very logical sense.

However, I have good distance vision, and when watching well produced 1080p Blu-rays, at 10 feet from our 80 inch screen, and a round object, like an apple, or a planet in space, appears in a movie, I just don't notice jagged edges in the circle that's formed by the outer edge of such a round object. And with me not seeing such jagged edges with circles presented in 1080p, I'm sure I wouldn't be bothered by any such "jaggies" with 4k representations of such round forms.

So maybe Mr Zohn's statement about jagged edges is one of those theories that while being valid, only turns out to be a realistic factor for people, if they are sitting much closer to a given size screen, than they would ever normally choose to sit from such a screen.

[Robert Zohn]

Please also consider Florian Friedrich's comments on the advantages of 8K resolution at all viewing distances.

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Please also consider Florian Friedrich's comments on the advantages of 8K resolution at all viewing distances.

I keep thinking that basically all features of 8K except resolution could be adopted in a newer specification for 4K (Ultra 4K). But looking at what currently is out there in the 4K marketplace it appears to me to be a total mess. You have very cheap 4K sets touting HDR but delivering much less that what a high end 4K set can deliver. Most consumers will go for a low end set since they see the key words "4K" and "HDR".

From what I understand the 8K certification specifications deliver a much higher quality picture (even if a manufacturer just meets the minimum requirements, so we can start off with a much better consumer viewing experience.

Now if they only added 3D (maybe after Avatar 2)!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Please also consider Florian Friedrich's comments on the advantages of 8K resolution at all viewing distances.

which are ? (audio is challenging to follow).
And were there any brochures/white paper given out at the show to illustrate this or better yet are Florian’s findings published in a professional peer-reviewed journal (like last month’s Journal of Information Display or a prior SID Technical Digest from last year which delve into perceptual and cognitive factors related to advantages of 8K displays) to see if his results and conclusions can be independently duplicated by other investigators?

He’s done some good (reproducible) work on HDR in the past.