Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

I'm willing to bet there aren't ANY clones in the new trilogy. If the "Luke goes to Dagobah" thing is true, we might see Vader again, if Luke returns to that Dark Side tree for another "vision quest", or if Leia peers into the the past and sees Vader that way.

But no -- no cloned Vader, no cloned Emperor. I don't think that's happening. Shakespeare couldn't write that plot and make it sound less dorky.

I don't agree at all. Why wouldn't it make sense, with all we know about Palpatine and the clones, that he wouldn't have been setting up for a new clone body for himself all along? From what I understand, that whole idea was in the Dark Empire comic series and was one of things Lucas wanted most.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Kasdan and Ford wanted to kill Solo in Jedi, they might get their wish here...but Luke isn't going to do it.

Just so long as Solo doesn't die telling Luke, "...now...you...you still owe me two...(death rattle)".

What if he dies saving Luke?

"That's three you owe me, Junior..."

[Packerfan75]

Originally Posted by Walts Ghost

He could die, but I still firmly believe that Luke will be in the entire trilogy. That's all I'm saying. We'll see Hamill all the way to the end of Episode IX.

I agree. Luke has alot of work to do as the last remaining Jedi. He needs to pass on his knowledge to the next generation, create a new Jedi temple since he'll be the only master, raise his own children and/or relatives in the way of the force, not to mention that the Skywalker storyline is what fuels the whole series. He's too important to kill off right away and pick up the ghostly Obi Wan role.
There will almost certainly be a return of the sith and probably a new enemy to boot. Personally I'd like to see a remnant of the Empire try to make one last attempt to regain control under a new leader.

[stvn1974]

I want Han to die in Chewie's arms. You hear him growl something and then Han says "I know" and then he dies.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

I don't agree at all. Why wouldn't it make sense, with all we know about Palpatine and the clones, that he wouldn't have been setting up for a new clone body for himself all along? From what I understand, that whole idea was in the Dark Empire comic series and was one of things Lucas wanted most.

Well, what Lucas wants isn't the greatest arbiter of quality, but that said I wouldn't mind a clone story if they could make it work. The concept dates back to the early drafts of Empire when Lando was supposed to be a replica of some prince who kept on cloning himself so he'd never die (I could be wrong on the specifics), and it got wheeled out properly in the prequels anyway so it's not like it'd come from left field.

But perhaps the biggest reason for not doing it is simply because clones have featured so heavily in the EU, it'd be difficult to take it in a fresh direction whereas the idea of hermit Luke going into hiding because his powers have grown so great appears to have taken everyone by surprise.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

I want Han to die in Chewie's arms and then you hear him growl something and then Han says "I know".

Or how about Chewie growls and Han says "whaddaya mean 'I'm an old fossil'?" [croaks]

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Well, what Lucas wants isn't the greatest arbiter of quality, but that said I wouldn't mind a clone story if they could make it work. The concept dates back to the early drafts of Empire when Lando was supposed to be a replica of some prince who kept on cloning himself so he'd never die (I could be wrong on the specifics), and it got wheeled out properly in the prequels anyway so it's not like it'd come from left field.

But perhaps the biggest reason for not doing it is simply because clones have featured so heavily in the EU, it'd be difficult to take it in a fresh direction whereas the idea of hermit Luke going into hiding because his powers have grown so great appears to have taken everyone by surprise.

I knew someone was going to tear my statement down because I used Lucas's name. Afterall, he only created Star Wars. Anyway, the Clone thing may seem cliche now, because we've seen it done so many times, especially in comics, but the original Star Wars was actually one of the first films I remember hearing the word clone in; So, despite how long it took before The Clone Wars were actually seen on screen, I believe if Lucas did have any ideas of where this franchise could go, cloning was always going to play a part in it.

Plus, we have to consider the idea that Palpatine is very old and very powerful -- Powerful enough to possibly transfer his living force from one body into another. It might seem like it's too obvious a path, but that doesn't mean it's not the right path to take.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

Plus, we have to consider the idea that Palpatine is very old and very powerful -- Powerful enough to possibly transfer his living force from one body into another. It might seem like it's too obvious a path, but that doesn't mean it's not the right path to take.

Something like that would probably be child's play for Palpatine.

[blonde_devil]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Eh, to be fair to old Spice, er, Spock, the Countdown prequel comic went into a lot more detail about what actually happened to Romulus, but it was greatly simplified in the movie. (I know the same thing applies to Khan in STID and yet I'm a lot harder on that movie, but that's because the Khan book came out several weeks after the movie in order to keep the "suspense" of the Khan reveal, whereas the 2009 comic prequel was released the same day as the movie.)

True but that doesn't count as canon
With Star Wars, despite what some sites call it, this is not a reboot or anything of the sort but a sequel so having some of the characters from original movies makes sense. I don't think they should be the main characters but that is just me. With Star Trek, it was just a bad idea - a way to get people to see the film - "see Nimoy play Spock one last time"(maybe). It was forced and felt that way where as this should feel natural. But time will tell as we could have Han Solo still running around screaming "yahoo!" since they dumped the 30 years worth of history since Jedi and there is nothing saying he ever settled down.

With the Emperor, I get the feeling they will go with a clone and some magic jedi mind transfer. Seems the easiest way to get a badguy people know and I can't see the Emperor manipulating things behind the scenes to get a clone army without some larger purpose. After all, if he just wanted an army there are tons of battle droids out there and they will do as told.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

I knew someone was going to tear my statement down because I used Lucas's name. Afterall, he only created Star Wars. Anyway, the Clone thing may seem cliche now, because we've seen it done so many times, especially in comics, but the original Star Wars was actually one of the first films I remember hearing the word clone in; So, despite how long it took before The Clone Wars were actually seen on screen, I believe if Lucas did have any ideas of where this franchise could go, cloning was always going to play a part in it.

Plus, we have to consider the idea that Palpatine is very old and very powerful -- Powerful enough to possibly transfer his living force from one body into another. It might seem like it's too obvious a path, but that doesn't mean it's not the right path to take.

Don't give me the butthurt routine, I didn't "tear" anything down with the vitriol that normally gets directed at Lucas (my name ain't Elvis, bruh ) and I've defended the man many a time, but in this case it's true: he really did make some terrible storytelling choices when making the prequels, and if he had his way the sequel trilogy probably would've been full of Palpatine clones and ass-cows.

Still, if we're considering the idea that Palps transferred his consciousness when he died, then who would've been the nearest recipient that made it off the Death Star II alive? That's right, a certain Mr Luke Skywalker. What if Palps' mind had been laying dormant for years before Luke started dabbling with the Dark Side and somehow 'awoke' the Emperor inside his brain, so he then goes into hiding? MUST....SAVE....DE BRAIN!!!

[octagon]

Tiiiiiiiiiiiime, is on my side...yes it is...

[Al_The_Strange]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

As long as Han doesn't die of a broken heart I won't mind.

Obviously,

[Show spoiler]he dies from a door falling on him

.

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Still, if we're considering the idea that Palps transferred his consciousness when he died, then who would've been the nearest recipient that made it off the Death Star II alive? That's right, a certain Mr Luke Skywalker. What if Palps' mind had been laying dormant for years before Luke started dabbling with the Dark Side and somehow 'awoke' the Emperor inside his brain, so he then goes into hiding? MUST....SAVE....DE BRAIN!!!

Well, maybe he didn't have to transfer into someone else right away. He might be able to keep himself, at least temporarily, in some sort of astral ghost form for a while.

Originally Posted by octagon

Tiiiiiiiiiiiime, is on my side...yes it is...

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

Well, maybe he didn't have to transfer into someone else right away. He might be able to keep himself, at least temporarily, in some sort of astral ghost form for a while.

Ah, good point. If he inhabits another body that'd also jive with the rumours that Palps is coming back but with another actor. Still, whether it's a young clone or a possessed person it'd need to be a different guy regardless.

Still like the idea of Plagueis though. Lucas laid the trail of breadcrumbs in the PT, it'd be great to see JJ follow through with it in the ST. Who can you possibly get as a villain that's badder than Palpatine? His former master, natch. And if Palps really is dead, then that'd be a posthumous FU to him because Plagueis did cheat death after all.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

I don't agree at all. Why wouldn't it make sense, with all we know about Palpatine and the clones, that he wouldn't have been setting up for a new clone body for himself all along? From what I understand, that whole idea was in the Dark Empire comic series and was one of things Lucas wanted most.

Clones are a soap opera get-out-of-jail-free-card. Lame as hell, I give Kasdan, Arndt, and Abrams a bit more credit than that.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

What if he dies saving Luke?

"That's three you owe me, Junior..."

"I owe YOU one." -- Return of the Jedi. And yeah, HAn isn't going to go down saving Ewoks. He'll go down saving Luke. Maybe BOTH will die.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

I don't agree at all. Why wouldn't it make sense, with all we know about Palpatine and the clones, that he wouldn't have been setting up for a new clone body for himself all along? From what I understand, that whole idea was in the Dark Empire comic series and was one of things Lucas wanted most.

Key words..."with all we know".

Mainstream fans aren't big into EU. And folks like me rolled their eyes over cloned Palpatines and Vaders as lame soap opera nonsense. It's just stupid..the kinda thing Annie Wilkes would have invented to keep her beloved characaters from dying. And trust me...it aint happening in Episode VII.

[sarah_wentworth]

Originally Posted by Cook

I think that's the idea that Lucas wanted to get across and for us to accept, but it's an idea I can't and won't accept. "One good deed is not enough to redeem a man of a lifetime of wickedness."

Not that I'm saying the one good deed and it's repercussions are made less so by all his previous actions. Standing up to the Emperor was good for the galaxy and it's people and in that moment he saved lives, but it doesn't wipe the slate clean.

i think the only people that had a problem with the Emperor was Yoda and a few others. from what i understand crime was down and no one really cared who was in charge.

Originally Posted by Falaskan

I like this idea. Tho I've heard Ian mcdimond won't come back

that sucks. i thought he was the best actor out of all the movies

[sarah_wentworth]

Originally Posted by Elandyll

Oh sweet jesus .. really?

"I was only following orders"


Let's not forget that he personally led the torture and interogation on Leia herself (A New Hope), killed Luke's mentor -Obi Wan- when he was not even being agressive or defending himself (A New Hope), Tortured Han in person without even asking any question just to make Luke Force Sense that he was in trouble (ESB), gave Han away to Jaba the Hutt to be tortured/ disposed off after he used him as a bait (ESB), pushed his own son to the choice of either death or joining him to become a dictator of the worst kind bent on evil (ESB), threatened to thoroughly corrupt his own daughter to try to force his son to cooperate and join him (ROTJ).

And that's only the stuff he did to his own kids and their best friends directly, on top of the already mentionned things.
No, Anakin is not redeemed imo, not by a long shot, and indeed including him in the family reunions would be more than akward even if Lucas wanted us to feel that all was well and resolved.
Frankly, from the very moment it was shown that he pesonally slaughtered the Jedi children, there was no redeeming possible (zero), even if Luke sensed there was still a flicker of good in him. All that Luke did by allowing the flicker to be back in control was to make Anakin realize he had been wrong about everything.

A serial Mass murderer isn't redemmed by realizing he has been wrong and saving 1 person at the end of his life.
The Force might judge a person according to their current emotions and not their past actions, sure. Humanity isn't that shallow though, because we need to remember our past to try to better our futur (hopefully).

well from the Empire's perspective a group of rebels(terrorists), were trying to destroy their democratically elected government. sometimes death and torture is acceptable when trying to stop those that are trying to kill you.

in the end maybe Vader did nothing wrong. i mean the jedi's had a kill on sight policy when it came to Sith even though there were hundreds or a thousand jedi in the galaxy for all we know and 2 Sith lol.

Vader and the Emperor had to do what was necessary to stop the threat to the government

Originally Posted by thegoat

Oh noooo! That would totally undermine the idea that his arrogance was his undoing. He thought he and his empire were so powerful and immune to any threat that he was willing to sit on the sidelines and watch the rebels crash lime waves on on a cliff. Also, he would not have left the opportunity to turn Luke to a anyone, even a clone. He wanted to properly continue the Sith legacy with "someone far younger and more powerful" than Vader. Finally, I can't see Palpatine making a clone at all. He's too much of a control freak.

that sucks. i liked Palpatine

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by sarah_wentworth

well from the Empire's perspective a group of rebels(terrorists), were trying to destroy their democratically elected government. sometimes death and torture is acceptable when trying to stop those that are trying to kill you.

in the end maybe Vader did nothing wrong. i mean the jedi's had a kill on sight policy when it came to Sith even though there were hundreds or a thousand jedi in the galaxy for all we know and 2 Sith lol.

Vader and the Emperor to do what was necessary to stop the threat to the government

that sucks. i liked Palpatine

I'm so glad you don't work in our govt