Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[aiman04]

It's Anakin.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by aiman04

It's Anakin.

It's supposed to be Ani in my post but Anikan is saved I'm my spell check. I didn't catch it. Ill fix that.

[Al_The_Strange]

Originally Posted by Cook

Agreed.

Imo Anikan isnt a good guy even after redemption. The Dark Side can't make you do something. It just enhances and exposes the darkness within. Anikan as we saw with the sand people was always capable of doing unspeakable things. So even tho he saved his son he still did all that horrible shit before he was redeemed. Redemption doesn't wipe the slate. The only thing that ever held Anikan together was the friends and loved ones around him, and when he lost them he just lost it and became a monster and that is not the marks of a good person or a strong person. The second he had no one to live up to and be good for he became a monster. In short Anikan has the moral fortitude of a steaming pile of dogshit. If he found any kind of small decency and humanity in his redemption he will recognize this flaw in himself and remain in solitude and exile as punishment for all the awful shit he did.

Now, there's an argument to be made that his judgement was clouded, but that's a slippery slope and if we use that argument then where do we stop? Was Palpatine's judgement clouded long ago? What about any number of Sith? My point is Anikan is responsible and he and we can't absolve him of his sins by saying the Darkside made him do it.

Just my opinion. I'm sure people will disagree.

Wasn't the idea always that his last good deed makes up for all past deeds?

I guess that's highly debatable too, given that he killed thousands, but saved his son. It's actually selfish. What a jerk, jeez...

[Cook]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

Wasn't the idea always that his last good deed makes up for all past deeds?

I guess that's highly debatable too, given that he killed thousands, but saved his son. It's actually selfish. What a jerk, jeez...

I think that's the idea that Lucas wanted to get across and for us to accept, but it's an idea I can't and won't accept. "One good deed is not enough to redeem a man of a lifetime of wickedness."

Not that I'm saying the one good deed and it's repercussions are made less so by all his previous actions. Standing up to the Emperor was good for the galaxy and it's people and in that moment he saved lives, but it doesn't wipe the slate clean.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by octagon

Yeah, that wouldn't be at all awkward. The guy...

Murdered their mother.

Ehhh, debatable.

Had Luke's aunt and uncle murdered.

Kill happy troopers did that. Vader wasn't even in the system.

Chopped off Luke's hand (after luring him into a trap by torturing his pal).

True, but arguably in self defense. Luke was doing his damnedest to kill him.

Blew up Leia's home planet (after torturing her in an attempt to find the location of the rebel base).

Tarkin did that. Wasn't Vader's idea.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Ehhh, debatable.
Kill happy troopers did that. Vader wasn't even in the system.

True, but arguably in self defense. Luke was doing his damnedest to kill him.

Tarkin did that. Wasn't Vader's idea.

Anakin choked Padme which induced labor. Whether by a broken heart or labor it falls on Anakin. She's dead cause of his dumbass.

As for Luke, Vader is powerful enough in the Force to have stopped Luke without giving his hand the chop. Vader did it cause he could and didn't care. Not that it's a huge deal. What with robotics and synthetic skin and artificial nerves the hand isn't a great loss and ranks way down the list of grievances. Imo Luke losing the hand was a lesson well learned so I don't actually hold that against Vader.

And Vader could have stopped Tarkin if he'd wanted to. Vader may not have ordered the destruction of the planet but he was complicit in its destruction.

Can't argue with you about Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen. That lies with the troops and the officer who gave the order. Vader didn't personally pick them out for slaughter. Although, I doubt he cared or would have stopped the troops. He'd have killed them himself if he thought it would get them the droids back. He allowed the destruction of one planet and almost another to stop the Rebels. Two nobodies on a backwater planet are of zero concern to Vader.

[Falaskan]

Originally Posted by sarah_wentworth

i was hoping the Emperor had a clone of himself on the 2nd Death Star instead of him being there since it was also kind of incomplete like the first one and a risk

I like this idea. Tho I've heard Ian mcdimond won't come back

[octagon]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Ehhh, debatable.

Kill happy troopers did that. Vader wasn't even in the system.

True, but arguably in self defense. Luke was doing his damnedest to kill him.

Tarkin did that. Wasn't Vader's idea.

[Show spoiler]

[stvn1974]

Originally Posted by octagon

Yeah, that wouldn't be at all awkward. The guy...

Murdered their mother.

Had Luke's aunt and uncle murdered.

Chopped off Luke's hand (after luring him into a trap by torturing his pal).

Blew up Leia's home planet (after torturing her in an attempt to find the location of the rebel base).

I think the phrase 'leave well enough alone' might apply here.

Yeah, Thanksgiving would be awkward at the Skywalker house. Even if you look at it from the point that he was consumed with the dark side when he did those things it would be comparable if your father was a bastard because he was drunk.

[Elandyll]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Ehhh, debatable.
Kill happy troopers did that. Vader wasn't even in the system.

True, but arguably in self defense. Luke was doing his damnedest to kill him.

Tarkin did that. Wasn't Vader's idea.

Oh sweet jesus .. really?

"I was only following orders"


Let's not forget that he personally led the torture and interogation on Leia herself (A New Hope), killed Luke's mentor -Obi Wan- when he was not even being agressive or defending himself (A New Hope), Tortured Han in person without even asking any question just to make Luke Force Sense that he was in trouble (ESB), gave Han away to Jaba the Hutt to be tortured/ disposed off after he used him as a bait (ESB), pushed his own son to the choice of either death or joining him to become a dictator of the worst kind bent on evil (ESB), threatened to thoroughly corrupt his own daughter to try to force his son to cooperate and join him (ROTJ).

And that's only the stuff he did to his own kids and their best friends directly, on top of the already mentionned things.
No, Anakin is not redeemed imo, not by a long shot, and indeed including him in the family reunions would be more than akward even if Lucas wanted us to feel that all was well and resolved.
Frankly, from the very moment it was shown that he pesonally slaughtered the Jedi children, there was no redeeming possible (zero), even if Luke sensed there was still a flicker of good in him. All that Luke did by allowing the flicker to be back in control was to make Anakin realize he had been wrong about everything.

A serial Mass murderer isn't redemmed by realizing he has been wrong and saving 1 person at the end of his life.
The Force might judge a person according to their current emotions and not their past actions, sure. Humanity isn't that shallow though, because we need to remember our past to try to better our futur (hopefully).

[thegoat]

Originally Posted by sarah_wentworth

i think i do *gulp*


that would be cool. i would like Palpatine to come back. i was hoping the Emperor had a clone of himself on the 2nd Death Star instead of him being there since it was also kind of incomplete like the first one and a risk

Oh noooo! That would totally undermine the idea that his arrogance was his undoing. He thought he and his empire were so powerful and immune to any threat that he was willing to sit on the sidelines and watch the rebels crash lime waves on on a cliff. Also, he would not have left the opportunity to turn Luke to a anyone, even a clone. He wanted to properly continue the Sith legacy with "someone far younger and more powerful" than Vader. Finally, I can't see Palpatine making a clone at all. He's too much of a control freak.

[blonde_devil]

Originally Posted by Walts Ghost

See, the only difference I see between the Spock's use in the new Star Trek films, and the new Star Wars, is it makes more sense to use Luke. It's more, well, logical. The use of Spock in Star Trek (2009) was actually really good, and more than fitting send off to the original timeline. And as much as I like seeing him again in Into Darkness, it was really, really unneeded.

It makes more sense too as this is a continuation of the original stories and not some lame reboot attempt. Nimoy in the JJ universe is just an attempt to tie the 2 together but the whole story of Spock's failure and the destruction of Romulus is just bad as it doesn't fit in with the Trek universe - no one took time to double-check his calucations. Here, he doesn't need some lame excuse to bring in someone from the original films as the characters were all still alive when we last saw them. That allows you to give them a life inbetween the films where as Spock's only purpose in the JJ films is to give you info so you can skip ahead - don't learn Khan is dangerous, have Spock tell you this and save 15 minutes of story.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Kirk Out

Exactly

Luke is a branded character, sells lots of toys. No way they are going to turn him into a murderer. It ain't happening.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

I wonder iff JJ is going to bring back Darth Vader in some way. It makes more sense to bring back Sidious/Palpatine with a clone, but bringing back Vader would be sacrilegious --- and yet Star Wars without Vader just doesn't quite seem like Star Wars.

I'm willing to bet there aren't ANY clones in the new trilogy. If the "Luke goes to Dagobah" thing is true, we might see Vader again, if Luke returns to that Dark Side tree for another "vision quest", or if Leia peers into the the past and sees Vader that way.

But no -- no cloned Vader, no cloned Emperor. I don't think that's happening. Shakespeare couldn't write that plot and make it sound less dorky.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Walts Ghost

More than fistful thinking. It just makes sense. There's going to have to be some components of the OT left in full through the new series. Going as far back as the ROTJ, Hamill talked about he knew he'd be part of the next trilogy if Lucas ever made it. With how bent Abrams and Kennedy were to make sure that Luke, Han, and Leia were all a part of this new series, and with all the old indicators, I'd say if anyone was going to stick all the way through, it would be Luke. Especially if this stuff about him being part of the dark side is true, which also slightly falls in line with what Hamill has said before. It would be a redemption story for Luke, and a way to keep him all the way through with the new cast. It just makes sense.

Everyone keeps believing Han is going to die because of Latino Review...it makes a hell of a lot more sense for Luke to go down. He can still be in the next two as a shimmering ghosty nightlight like Obi Wan and Yoda.

[Walts Ghost]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Everyone keeps believing Han is going to die because of Latino Review...it makes a hell of a lot more sense for Luke to go down. He can still be in the next two as a shimmering ghosty nightlight like Obi Wan and Yoda.

He could die, but I still firmly believe that Luke will be in the entire trilogy. That's all I'm saying. We'll see Hamill all the way to the end of Episode IX.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Shakespeare couldn't write that plot and make it sound less dorky.

That's the real rub. It might be possible to go down the clone road without turning into some lame All My Children parody but it ain't likely.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by thegoat

Oh noooo! That would totally undermine the idea that his arrogance was his undoing. He thought he and his empire were so powerful and immune to any threat that he was willing to sit on the sidelines and watch the rebels crash lime waves on on a cliff. Also, he would not have left the opportunity to turn Luke to a anyone, even a clone. He wanted to properly continue the Sith legacy with "someone far younger and more powerful" than Vader. Finally, I can't see Palpatine making a clone at all. He's too much of a control freak.

He is indeed. It doesn't matter much now that the EU's been pushed aside, but in one of the books there's a story of how Palps hated one lackey so much that when he killed him he transferred the guy's mind to another body so he could kill him all over again.

Originally Posted by blonde_devil

It makes more sense too as this is a continuation of the original stories and not some lame reboot attempt. Nimoy in the JJ universe is just an attempt to tie the 2 together but the whole story of Spock's failure and the destruction of Romulus is just bad as it doesn't fit in with the Trek universe - no one took time to double-check his calucations. Here, he doesn't need some lame excuse to bring in someone from the original films as the characters were all still alive when we last saw them. That allows you to give them a life inbetween the films where as Spock's only purpose in the JJ films is to give you info so you can skip ahead - don't learn Khan is dangerous, have Spock tell you this and save 15 minutes of story.

Eh, to be fair to old Spice, er, Spock, the Countdown prequel comic went into a lot more detail about what actually happened to Romulus, but it was greatly simplified in the movie. (I know the same thing applies to Khan in STID and yet I'm a lot harder on that movie, but that's because the Khan book came out several weeks after the movie in order to keep the "suspense" of the Khan reveal, whereas the 2009 comic prequel was released the same day as the movie.)

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Walts Ghost

He could die, but I still firmly believe that Luke will be in the entire trilogy. That's all I'm saying. We'll see Hamill all the way to the end of Episode IX.

Kasdan and Ford wanted to kill Solo in Jedi, they might get their wish here...but Luke isn't going to do it.

Just so long as Solo doesn't die telling Luke, "...now...you...you still owe me two...(death rattle)".

[stvn1974]

As long as Han doesn't die of a broken heart I won't mind.