Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[Gamma_Winstead]

And the Sith aren't in this movie, so why are we talking about it?

[aiman04]

Originally Posted by Gamma_Winstead

And the Sith aren't in this movie, so why are we talking about it?

You just answered your own question.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Col. Zombie

It seems the "destroy the Sith" aspect was actually more of an inference than necessarily the directly stated prophecy. I believe the prophecy spoke about bringing balance to the force. Balance, maybe meaning "to make things even." If so, the Jedi had way too much control for a long time and the Sith are on the outs (behind the scenes). So the Jedi are eventually all but vanquished by the Sith. The Sith then begin to "rule" for a while and then later Vader takes out the Sith emperor. Voila! Balance.

But I don't know. The whole prophecy thing sounds like a bunch of BS (McGuffin) contrived by Lucas to center a new prequel trilogy around.

I've been saying that for a while. Anakin DID bring balance because he destroyed the Jedi (as in the tired dogmatic institution, not every last Force user) in Ep III and ended the lineage of the Sith by killing Palpatine and sacrificing himself in the process in Ep VI. That way the path was left clear for the Force to find its own way again, which may be what this "awakening" in the new movie is all about. There will always be dark and light, so if there's a new Dark Side faction (which probably won't have some 'rule of two' restriction) then the Force may well "awaken" in some other folks to try and balance it out. Is it what gives Finn's conscience a nudge when he decides to desert from the First Order?

[Roonan]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I've been saying that for a while. Anakin DID bring balance because he destroyed the Jedi (as in the tired dogmatic institution, not every last Force user) in Ep III and ended the lineage of the Sith by killing Palpatine and sacrificing himself in the process in Ep VI.

That's not what happened at all. First, destroying the Jedi is not part of bringing balance to the Force (on the contrary, actually). Second, Anakin helped to destroy the Jedi, he wasn't the one who did it all. He was the one who destroyed the Sith however, and by doing so balance was restored.

Also, the Force is not the Jedi and Sith. The Force is part of every living being. Destroying the Sith is not destroying the dark side. The dark side is always there, but without the Sith, it's not being exploited anymore and ceases to take over the light.

[Geoff D]

You've completely missed the point I tried to make. I didn't say that that the Jedi and the Sith represented every single good or bad Force user, I said that Anakin destroyed the institutions that made up these factions, who were hogging the Force for their own ends. He cleared the decks for the Force to take its own path.

[Himmel]

Beginning next Wednesday Sept 2nd @ 2:30 pm P.T Lucasfilm will launch a series of unboxings around the world to reveal Star Wars the force awakens collectibles...

The first unboxing will take place in Sydney, Australia and culminate at Lucasfilm on Thursday Sept 3rd @ 8:am P.T.

All the festivities can been seen on the Star Wars YouTube Channel.

Hit the link to view times and names of popular toy unboxers that will partake in this event.

http://www.starwars.com/news/the-for...ent-on-youtube

[Roonan]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I said that Anakin destroyed the institutions that made up these factions, who were hogging the Force for their own ends.

How were the Jedi "hogging the Force for their own ends"? The Jedi have a belevolent connection with the Force. They strive for balance.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

He cleared the decks for the Force to take its own path.

The Force's path is to remain balanced. The only deck that needed to be cleared were the Sith which were like a cancer to the Force, exploiting its dark side for power and to cause suffering and death.

[thunderforce]

I think in the future we are going to see others using the force not Jedi or Sith , some will be good some will be bad and others will be neutral . If the force was real and for many many years everyone knew about it I am sure others would learn to tap into that power .

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Roonan

How were the Jedi "hogging the Force for their own ends"? The Jedi have a belevolent connection with the Force. They strive for balance.

The Force's path is to remain balanced. The only deck that needed to be cleared were the Sith which were like a cancer to the Force, exploiting its dark side for power and to cause suffering and death.

Sure, if you think that the Jedi were completely unimpeachable and 100% above reproach and perfect in all their actions....I don't. Lucas made sure to let us know that their rigid methods were outdated after the last 1000 years of unchecked existence and that they weren't flexible enough and wise enough to rescue Anakin from the Dark Side. It's kind of an unspoken lament that Qui-Gon was killed because his maverick ways may have corrected the Jedi's course and he may have even refused to fight in the Clone Wars which is what clouded their judgement even further. Obi-Wan's wistful eulogy about the Order in Ep IV certainly paints this romantic notion that the Jedi were this noble clan of peacekeepers who could do no wrong before the nasty old Empire came along, but the prequels present something a bit more complex.

[Roonan]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Sure, if you think that the Jedi were completely unimpeachable and 100% above reproach and perfect in all their actions....I don't.

Neither do I. But what does that got to do with what I asked?

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Lucas made sure to let us know that their rigid methods were outdated after the last 1000 years of unchecked existence and that they weren't flexible enough and wise enough to rescue Anakin from the Dark Side.

Their methods were never in question in the movies and it wasn't their ways that made Anakin fall to the dark side. It was his own choices.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It's kind of an unspoken lament that Qui-Gon was killed because his maverick ways may have corrected the Jedi's course and he may have even refused to fight in the Clone Wars which is what clouded their judgement even further.

Refusal to fight in the war would lead to the Republic be invaded by the Separatists. They have a duty to protect the Republic, so fighting in the war was a necessity.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Obi-Wan's wistful eulogy about the Order in Ep IV certainly paints this romantic notion that the Jedi were this noble clan of peacekeepers who could do no wrong before the nasty old Empire came along, but the prequels present something a bit more complex.

The prequels present the Jedi in the prime. They are not perfect nor do they claim to be, but they have no major flaw that makes them "hogging the Force" or justify their annihilation. Anakin didn't fall because of them. The Empire wasn't formed because of them.

[Himmel]

For those wishing to know the true history and nature of the sith and understand their society as I have you should search out this very informative and well detailed book:

[Al_The_Strange]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You've completely missed the point I tried to make. I didn't say that that the Jedi and the Sith represented every single good or bad Force user, I said that Anakin destroyed the institutions that made up these factions, who were hogging the Force for their own ends. He cleared the decks for the Force to take its own path.

That's my interpretation as well.

Originally Posted by Roonan

How were the Jedi "hogging the Force for their own ends"? The Jedi have a belevolent connection with the Force. They strive for balance.

They may have been benevolent, or at least impartial. They talked about the prophecy and how great it is to have "balance" in the force, but none of them really understood what that meant. To them, balance would be no Sith and all Jedi, but that's not balance in the true sense.

Originally Posted by Roonan

Their methods were never in question in the movies and it wasn't their ways that made Anakin fall to the dark side. It was his own choices.

Their methods were always being questioned by Anakin, for pretty much all of Episode II. He insisted on an investigation of Padme's assassination attempts, but was turned down (and then the job given to Obi-Wan eventually; a very flaky move on the council's behalf). Anakin's views on love differed from that of the council, which seemed really uptight about the issue. The council never gave Anakin much of a voice or much credence, regardless of whether he was right or wrong about things. Instead, they chose to stick with a rigid, inflexible chain of command where the masters have this "do what I say!" attitude and nobody really listened or cared. The issue may be further compounded by what happened to Ahsoka.

Between his frustration with the council then and all the bureaucratic nonsense in Episode I, Anakin became jaded and disillusioned with the galactic government, which made him susceptible to Palpatine's manipulations. Even though he made the choices that led him to the Dark Side, all these issues prodded him along that path.

If the Jedi Council was more flexible and compassionate, Anakin might have stayed with them. If the Jedi and Sith were out of the picture completely, his path would have probably been something totally different and unique.

Originally Posted by Roonan

Refusal to fight in the war would lead to the Republic be invaded by the Separatists. They have a duty to protect the Republic, so fighting in the war was a necessity.

But Palpatine controlled the war on both sides. If the Council refused to fight and investigated the issue properly, they could have uncovered the Sith plot before all-out war even began. Luckily for the Sith, the Jedi's blind devotion allowed them to fall into their petty hands and fight the war as Palpatine wanted. With Order 66 in play, the Jedi unwittingly lined themselves up for the slaughter.

Originally Posted by Roonan

The prequels present the Jedi in the prime. They are not perfect nor do they claim to be, but they have no major flaw that makes them "hogging the Force" or justify their annihilation. Anakin didn't fall because of them. The Empire wasn't formed because of them.

The Jedi had flaws: they were so stuck in their ways that they became inflexible, easily-manipulated, blind, controlling, and they ran the risk of overstepping their boundaries.

The Sith, on the other hand, make a compelling case for overthrowing the Jedi, if for no other reason than they embrace passion while Jedi reject it. They were able to do things and go places that the Jedi couldn't, and wouldn't. The Jedi's refusal to give into temptation meant that they couldn't perceive or understand the secrets of love, life, and death the way a Sith can, and thus they never learned true responsibility over such things, and they missed out on some of the most powerful Force tricks ever. In fact, the Jedi never even learned about the Force Ghost thing; that was something Qui-Gon learned on his own, and he was the first Jedi to do so. I have a feeling that he went against Jedi doctrine to do so (and Yoda seemed to approve at the end of Ep III, given how far things had come by then).

Ultimately, the Jedi and Sith represented two opposite extremes. Neither one is meant to be more right than the other; too much of one side is out of balance no matter how you slice it. The only way to balance it all out is to eliminate both sides, which is where it all ends in ROTJ.

[Himmel]

Star Wars the Force Awakens to take over IMAX for a Month!!]

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/new...ens-set-817709

[Geoff D]

Al: Yup. The central issue is that the Jedi had become so complacent and so set in their ways that they were blind to the evil that was blooming in the Republic under their very noses. At what point does benevolence become incompetence?

[aiman04]

Watching the saga in marathons so many times, I believe in the grand scheme of things, the Jedi are partly responsible for their own fall. We were made to understand that the prophecy was about Anakin bringing balance to the Force by destroying the Sith, the Jedi spoke openly about it.

But Lucas also subtly hinted throughout the whole prequels that that may not be true. Only after the Jedi were too deep into the war did Yoda realize, "a prophecy, misread could have been", that they've become blind of all the manipulations by the Sith. I think that is the message Lucas was trying to tell, how organizations become inward thinking without check and balance after thousands of years.

This message also delivered through Palpatine, how arrogant the Jedi have become, afraid of losing power, how their characteristics are similar to the Sith, "and the Jedi don't?" People may see it as a lie to lure Anakin to the dark side, but looking at the overall Jedi vs Sith arc I also saw it as Lucas' way of getting us thinking a little bit more.

Considering the state of the Jedi as above, it is my opinion (Lucas rightfully let this be debatable) that the prophecy of Anakin bringing balance to the Force is actually the opposite of what the Jedi believe. As Geoff had said, it completed with Anakin's sacrifice, allowing a new Awakening. Thinking about it, this makes sense to not have Sith in the new Episodes, instead new groups of Force users with new set of rules.

[Geoff D]

Exactly. Yoda's sorry but not just because the Jedi have been wiped out, he's also sorry for how the Jedi Order - under his stewardship - were blindsided by the Sith. They were arrogant to believe that the Sith could even return without them knowing, they were too prideful to reveal that their Force abilities had diminished, and they allowed their moral imperative as "guardians of peace and justice" to be eroded over time until they were little more than lapdogs unwittingly doing Palpatine's bidding. Some "peacekeepers" they were; they basically handed the Republic on a plate to Palps.

I'm intrigued about the possibilities in the new movie, in that there will still be "good" and "bad" but in the case of Luke we might have a figure who's so powerful and God-like he's beyond such trivial notions, which would truly represent a "balancing" of both sides of the Force.

[Roonan]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

To them, balance would be no Sith and all Jedi, but that's not balance in the true sense.

Again, it's not balance of the Jedi and Sith, it's balance of the Force. Since the Sith are causing imbalance, their destruction would restore it.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

Their methods were always being questioned by Anakin, for pretty much all of Episode II.

No, they weren't. Anakin only commented about Padmé's assassination, nothing more.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

He insisted on an investigation of Padme's assassination attempts, but was turned down (and then the job given to Obi-Wan eventually; a very flaky move on the council's behalf).

Why was it flaky? It seems logical that such investigation be given to a Jedi Knight than a mere Padawan with no experience of his own.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

Anakin's views on love differed from that of the council, which seemed really uptight about the issue.

On the contrary. Anakin explains very well how the Jedi see love, compassion and attachment. He broke the tenets while being fully aware of the consequences.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

The council never gave Anakin much of a voice or much credence, regardless of whether he was right or wrong about things.

Could you provide an example?

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

Instead, they chose to stick with a rigid, inflexible chain of command where the masters have this "do what I say!" attitude and nobody really listened or cared.

One could argue that Anakin was the one who didn't really listen or cared.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

Between his frustration with the council then and all the bureaucratic nonsense in Episode I, Anakin became jaded and disillusioned with the galactic government, which made him susceptible to Palpatine's manipulations.

Politics had nothing to do with Anakin's manipulation by Palpatine. Attachment was what Palpatine used to exploit and turn him.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

Even though he made the choices that led him to the Dark Side, all these issues prodded him along that path.

Issues that were cause by his own impatience and lack of discipline. Still, he could have done the right thing at the crutial moment of Palpatine's arrest/destruction in Episode III, but he didn't.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

If the Jedi Council was more flexible and compassionate, Anakin might have stayed with them.

It's Anakin who should have adapted and followed the Jedi way, not the other way around. If he was unhappy with the Jedi and wanted to stay with Padmé, he was free to do so. But he was greedy and wanted the best of both worlds. Well, the world doesn't work like that. He was the one who needed to adapt and make a choice.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

But Palpatine controlled the war on both sides.

Yes, but only the audience knows about that. Not the characters.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

If the Council refused to fight and investigated the issue properly, they could have uncovered the Sith plot before all-out war even began.

When did the Council refuse to fight and investigate anything? And what leads should the Jedi have followed that would allow them to catch Palpatine?

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

Luckily for the Sith, the Jedi's blind devotion allowed them to fall into their petty hands and fight the war as Palpatine wanted.

Blind devotion to what? Palpatine used the dark side to literally blind the Jedi. They comment about it throughout the movies.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

The Jedi had flaws: they were so stuck in their ways that they became inflexible, easily-manipulated, blind, controlling, and they ran the risk of overstepping their boundaries.

When were they inflexible? How were they easily manipulated? If I throw a rock at you, should I blame you for not seeing that coming? If I actively hide without you knowing, should I blame you for not seeing me? Do you see the flaw in your logic?

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

The Sith, on the other hand, make a compelling case for overthrowing the Jedi, if for no other reason than they embrace passion while Jedi reject it.

How is that compelling?

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

They were able to do things and go places that the Jedi couldn't, and wouldn't.

At the cost of everything and everyone.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

The Jedi's refusal to give into temptation meant that they couldn't perceive or understand the secrets of love, life, and death the way a Sith can,

The Sith don't know love. They know passion, greed, attachment, fear, etc... The Jedi know the problems that arise from those who fall into those feeling, that's why they avoid them.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

and thus they never learned true responsibility over such things, and they missed out on some of the most powerful Force tricks ever.

The Jedi don't seek power for power sake. They seek knowledge, wisdom, and acept life and death willingly.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

In fact, the Jedi never even learned about the Force Ghost thing; that was something Qui-Gon learned on his own, and he was the first Jedi to do so.

So? Someone had to be the first. And the ability to retain their identity after death is something a Sith could never do due to their very nature.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

I have a feeling that he went against Jedi doctrine to do so

With no evidence whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

Ultimately, the Jedi and Sith represented two opposite extremes. Neither one is meant to be more right than the other; too much of one side is out of balance no matter how you slice it.

Once again, Jedi and Sith are not the light and dark side of the Force. The Jedi, by default, don't affect the balance of the Force because they are selfless and have a somewhat simbiotic relation with it. The Sith don't. They exploit it and by doing so bring the Force out of balance. They are like a disease.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

The only way to balance it all out is to eliminate both sides, which is where it all ends in ROTJ.

What? That's not how it works. Balance happens when Anakin returns and destroys his Vader persona and the Emperor. The destruction of the Sith bring balance.

[dcowboy7]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

If they aren't afraid of losing too much money to pirating, I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't get released until closer to the release of Rogue One, so maybe Late Oct.-Early Nov. 2016.

Almost a yr later ?? just dont see that happening.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by wormraper

That's not exactly true. the force is both light AND dark. to be balanced it needs some of each. Ying and Yang, day and night. one can't survive without the other

Didn't Lucas or McCallum say the Force is like a calm lake, and the Sith were causing waves and ripples, so restoring balance meant stopping what was causing the waves and ripples? Something like that. I am but a simple unfrozen caveman. Your modern world frightens and confuses me.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by Roonan

Again, it's not balance of the Jedi and Sith, it's balance of the Force. Since the Sith are causing imbalance, their destruction would restore it.

that only works if you think of the Force as some pure entity instead of having a dark side and a light (metaphorically). myself and others view the jedi and the sith as nothing but avatars for the different parts of the force. the force has as much evil in it as it has purity. one can not survive without the other.