Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[Al_The_Strange]

Originally Posted by chip75

I've never really understood (or got along with) the Rule of Two, you have two Sith a Master and Apprentice, but you can have thousands of Jedi. We had Palpatine and Darth Maul, but Count Dooku was in the background alongside General Grievous and Asajj Ventress, was Dooku bumped up the order when Maul was killed? It's implied that Dooku has Ventress as an apprentice in The Clone Wars.

It's seems lopsided to only have two Sith fight all the Jedi, unless they can have Dark Side warriors fight alongside them ready to take the place of the Apprentice.

Yeah, it feels quite convoluted in the PT. Trying to understand what was going on with them was one of the things that confused me the most when those movies came out.

I also agree that it seemed like the Sith were shooting themselves in the foot; I guess they thought that sheer power in various groups of two could overpower the Jedi Order; thus, their arrogance comes out.

Originally Posted by aiman04

Makes sense. And I guess those who are never trained don't matter much. I posted this in another discussion on Facebook but here it is again. What about that talk of the prophecy then, to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force? If there are Force users of the dark side other than Sith, how does that fit into the prophecy? Vader being "the one" won't matter anymore then.

The Jedi & Sith are important in the main saga, they're in the title of two episodes. If anything this got me even more curious to see this episode.

I'm personally not expecting the Jedi or Sith to come back in the new movie; the Jedi were purged in the PT (and events afterward), and I always interpreted the OT as Vader and Palpatine being the last of the Sith. With all of them gone, both groups are effectively dead (at least as organizations), and in that way, the prophecy is fulfilled (the force is balanced out).

I could be wrong though - who's to say that the Jedi/Sith won't come back in the new trilogy? Given that Luke represents the "return of the Jedi," I kinda expect him to start a new Jedi order of some kind. Rumors make it sound like he's a recluse, but I wonder more and more if it's more disinformation (especially if Yavin is one of the key locations). Won't know for sure until December.

Originally Posted by Pounder

So what are the odds Kylo Ren is

[Show spoiler]Han and Leia's kid? Just Han's? or no relation whatsoever to the Original Characters?

I speculate

[Show spoiler]no. If for no other reason than it's a rumor that's so widely spread now that it's got to be misinformation to purposefully misdirect expectations. I'll even bet they're setting us up for some kind of sucker-punch revelation in Ep. VIII.

I do speculate that Rey could be a Skywalker (via Leia/Han) and Finn could be a Calrissian (maybe from Lando's wild youth, who knows?). Otherwise, I assume that Kylo is just a random bad guy.

[madlost1]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

Yeah, it feels quite convoluted in the PT. Trying to understand what was going on with them was one of the things that confused me the most when those movies came out.

I also agree that it seemed like the Sith were shooting themselves in the foot; I guess they thought that sheer power in various groups of two could overpower the Jedi Order; thus, their arrogance comes out.



I'm personally not expecting the Jedi or Sith to come back in the new movie; the Jedi were purged in the PT (and events afterward), and I always interpreted the OT as Vader and Palpatine being the last of the Sith. With all of them gone, both groups are effectively dead (at least as organizations), and in that way, the prophecy is fulfilled (the force is balanced out).

I could be wrong though - who's to say that the Jedi/Sith won't come back in the new trilogy? Given that Luke represents the "return of the Jedi," I kinda expect him to start a new Jedi order of some kind. Rumors make it sound like he's a recluse, but I wonder more and more if it's more disinformation (especially if Yavin is one of the key locations). Won't know for sure until December.



I speculate

[Show spoiler]no. If for no other reason than it's a rumor that's so widely spread now that it's got to be misinformation to purposefully misdirect expectations. I'll even bet they're setting us up for some kind of sucker-punch revelation in Ep. VIII.

I do speculate that Rey could be a Skywalker (via Leia/Han) and Finn could be a Calrissian (maybe from Lando's wild youth, who knows?). Otherwise, I assume that Kylo is just a random bad guy.

Landos wild youth? The movie takes place 30 years after RotJ. Finn looks like hes barely over 20.

[Al_The_Strange]

Originally Posted by madlost1

Landos wild youth? The movie takes place 30 years after RotJ. Finn looks like hes barely over 20.

Truth be told...

[Show spoiler]I wasn't all that serious about that. Also, I forgot it was a 30 year gap.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

I guess they thought that sheer power in various groups of two could overpower the Jedi Order; thus, their arrogance comes out.

That's the thing I don't get, were there just 2? or where there groups of 2? The way Bane talks about it is that the Sith were too dangerous to have in numbers so he whittled it down to himself and an apprentice. Otherwise they'd be killing each other all the time and not getting down to the business of defeating the Jedi Order, but in the movies it's implied that each apprentice has another apprentice (or the Master has their eye on a back-up), or someone they're teaching the ways of the Force to.

[Al_The_Strange]

Originally Posted by chip75

That's the thing I don't get, were there just 2? or where there groups of 2? The way Bane talks about it is that the Sith were too dangerous to have in numbers so he whittled it down to himself and an apprentice. Otherwise they'd be killing each other all the time and not getting down to the business of defeating the Jedi Order, but in the movies it's implied that each apprentice has another apprentice (or the Master has their eye on a back-up), or someone they're teaching the ways of the Force to.

I was just reading up on it some more here, and from what I can tell the rule is meant to mean "only a master and apprentice at a time," but Palpatine/Sidious broke the rule repeatedly, and intended to change things. The matter is even more unclear regarding how the Sith regard themselves and their apprentices contextually (it looks like all these apprentices didn't officially count unless the title of "Darth" was bestowed).

Yeah...it's complicated.

[Det. Bullock]

Originally Posted by chip75

I've never really understood (or got along with) the Rule of Two, you have two Sith a Master and Apprentice, but you can have thousands of Jedi. We had Palpatine and Darth Maul, but Count Dooku was in the background alongside General Grievous and Asajj Ventress, was Dooku bumped up the order when Maul was killed? It's implied that Dooku has Ventress as an apprentice in The Clone Wars.

It's seems lopsided to only have two Sith fight all the Jedi, unless they can have Dark Side warriors fight alongside them ready to take the place of the Apprentice.

The rule of two was born because a particularly fanatical sith decided that if the Sith value power above everything else they must share it as little as possible and that for him the more people use the force the weaker they are, it wasn't just to prevent in-fighting, he killed the rest of the Sith order and took an apprentice thus effectively killing the old Sith order because he thought they weren't Sith enough even though that effectively that meant losing the war against the Jedi.
The Sith themselves are guided by their most abject passions even when appearing calculating, the Rule of Two is just Sith egotism and "might makes right" mentality taken to an extreme, it's not meant to be practically feasable because it reflects a mentality that is flawed at its core, I don't think it's casual that there are so many "unofficial" apprentices among them in the Clone Wars.

[Ironhorse75]

Originally Posted by Terminated

confirms JJ Abrams

Weren't we just reading headlines of him denying Khan?

[stvn1974]

If the new cast members are the kids of the main three or Lando then they would have had to have them in their 50's.

[Himmel]

The Sith are dead.... now begins a new resurgence.... the rule of two died when Palpatine was thrown to his death, a new dawn is rising..... you've been warned.

Plain and simple.....end of line.

[Gamma_Winstead]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

If the new cast members are the kids of the main three or Lando then they would have had to have them in their 50's.

Luke was supposedly 24 in return of the Jedi, as was Leia. If we're assuming that Rey is 20 exact, Leia would have been 34. A normal age for a child.

These characters are barely leaving their 50's, let alone having kids in their fifties.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by chip75

I've never really understood (or got along with) the Rule of Two, you have two Sith a Master and Apprentice, but you can have thousands of Jedi. We had Palpatine and Darth Maul, but Count Dooku was in the background alongside General Grievous and Asajj Ventress, was Dooku bumped up the order when Maul was killed? It's implied that Dooku has Ventress as an apprentice in The Clone Wars.

It's seems lopsided to only have two Sith fight all the Jedi, unless they can have Dark Side warriors fight alongside them ready to take the place of the Apprentice.

Why do you think Palpatine created a Clone Army to do his dirty work for him? I reckon the Sith were happy enough to fade into the background and regroup, letting a thousand years elapse to lull the Jedi into thinking that the Sith would never return (and when they did the Jedi Council were extremely sceptical, another sign of the hubris which would be the Jedi's downfall). This permitted Palps to hide in plain sight and to engineer a war which would tear the Republic apart and pervert the course of the Jedi from peacekeepers to warmongers, clouding their judgement until it was too late and all the pieces had been moved into place. "Execute Order 66"

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

Yeah...it's complicated.

Or just written poorly.

[Roonan]

Originally Posted by chip75

I've never really understood (or got along with) the Rule of Two, you have two Sith a Master and Apprentice, but you can have thousands of Jedi. We had Palpatine and Darth Maul, but Count Dooku was in the background alongside General Grievous and Asajj Ventress, was Dooku bumped up the order when Maul was killed? It's implied that Dooku has Ventress as an apprentice in The Clone Wars.

There are only two Sith at most. Master and apprentice.

In Episode I: Darth Sidious and Darth Maul
In Episode II: Darth Sidious and Darth Tyranus
In Episode III: Darth Sidious and Darth Tyranus (replaced by Darth Vader later)
In Episode IV-VI: Darth Sidious and Darth Vader

Grievous was a cyborg general and Ventress was an acolyte of Dooku/Tyranus. Neither were Sith.

Originally Posted by chip75

It's seems lopsided to only have two Sith fight all the Jedi, unless they can have Dark Side warriors fight alongside them ready to take the place of the Apprentice.

The Sith reformed themselves to be only two due to greed for power which led to infighting. That weakness was exploited by the Jedi which led to their extinction. One survived (Darth Bane) and only took one apprentice to prevent them from being destroyed.

And why should the Jedi and Sith have equal numbers? It makes no sense whatsoever. The Sith shouldn't even exist in the first place since they only cause destruction and imbalance to the Force.

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Great? No.

Yes, great. Excellent even. You have your subjective opinion, I have mine. You don't have to agree with me, but don't be condescendent by pretending your opinion is more valid than mine. Deal with the fact that we're talking about movies, art, which is inherently subjective.

[aiman04]

Finn could be the grandchild of Mace Windu. Or just a nobody who were chosen to receive Force ability during the Awakening.

[Col. Zombie]

Originally Posted by aiman04

What about that talk of the prophecy then, to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force? If there are Force users of the dark side other than Sith, how does that fit into the prophecy? Vader being "the one" won't matter anymore then.
The Jedi & Sith are important in the main saga, they're in the title of two episodes. If anything this got me even more curious to see this episode.

It seems the "destroy the Sith" aspect was actually more of an inference than necessarily the directly stated prophecy. I believe the prophecy spoke about bringing balance to the force. Balance, maybe meaning "to make things even." If so, the Jedi had way too much control for a long time and the Sith are on the outs (behind the scenes). So the Jedi are eventually all but vanquished by the Sith. The Sith then begin to "rule" for a while and then later Vader takes out the Sith emperor. Voila! Balance.

But I don't know. The whole prophecy thing sounds like a bunch of BS (McGuffin) contrived by Lucas to center a new prequel trilogy around.

[aiman04]

Originally Posted by Col. Zombie

It seems the "destroy the Sith" aspect was actually more of an inference than necessarily the directly stated prophecy. I believe the prophecy spoke about bringing balance to the force. Balance, maybe meaning "to make things even." If so, the Jedi had way too much control for a long time and the Sith are on the outs (behind the scenes). So the Jedi are eventually all but vanquished by the Sith. The Sith then begin to "rule" for a while and then later Vader takes out the Sith emperor. Voila! Balance.

But I don't know. The whole prophecy thing sounds like a bunch of BS (McGuffin) contrived by Lucas to center a new prequel trilogy around.

Agreed. That was my understanding as well. Yoda did say the prophecy may have been misread. Just that now it's getting a bit more confusing with the new dark side faction of Force users.

Or the balance can only be achieved when both Jedi and Sith are destroyed?

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Col. Zombie

It seems the "destroy the Sith" aspect was actually more of an inference than necessarily the directly stated prophecy. I believe the prophecy spoke about bringing balance to the force. Balance, maybe meaning "to make things even." If so, the Jedi had way too much control for a long time and the Sith are on the outs (behind the scenes). So the Jedi are eventually all but vanquished by the Sith. The Sith then begin to "rule" for a while and then later Vader takes out the Sith emperor. Voila! Balance.

Heh, that's an interesting way of looking at it. I never thought of this way but by helping to slaughter all but a handful of the Jedi the Chosen One did kind of bring balance to things

Originally Posted by Col. Zombie

But I don't know. The whole prophecy thing sounds like a bunch of BS (McGuffin) contrived by Lucas to center a new prequel trilogy around.

The most charitable way to look at is might be that all the mythical/religious prophecy, virgin birth stuff in TPM might have made more sense in the end if Lucas hadn't gotten cold feet (or simply changed his mind) about explicitly giving Palpatine and Anakin their own little 'Luke, I am your father' moment.

But ultimately, for whatever reasons, he didn't go that way so much of TPM wound up being not only pointless but needlessly distracting and confusing.

Whattayagonnado

[Roonan]

Originally Posted by Col. Zombie

It seems the "destroy the Sith" aspect was actually more of an inference than necessarily the directly stated prophecy. I believe the prophecy spoke about bringing balance to the force. Balance, maybe meaning "to make things even." If so, the Jedi had way too much control for a long time and the Sith are on the outs (behind the scenes). So the Jedi are eventually all but vanquished by the Sith. The Sith then begin to "rule" for a while and then later Vader takes out the Sith emperor. Voila! Balance.

That's not balance. The movies talk about balance of the Force, not balance of the Jedi and Sith. The Sith cause imbalance, therefore restoring balance to the Force requires the destruction of the Sith.

Originally Posted by octagon

The most charitable way to look at is might be that all the mythical/religious prophecy, virgin birth stuff in TPM might have made more sense in the end if Lucas hadn't gotten cold feet (or simply changed his mind) about explicitly giving Palpatine and Anakin their own little 'Luke, I am your father' moment.

He didn't got cold feet nor did he change his mind because that was never in consideration. Why should Palpatine be the origin of Anakin's creation?

Originally Posted by octagon

But ultimately, for whatever reasons, he didn't go that way so much of TPM wound up being not only pointless but needlessly distracting and confusing.

Not liking something doesn't make it pointless.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by Roonan

That's not balance. The movies talk about balance of the Force, not balance of the Jedi and Sith. The Sith cause imbalance, therefore restoring balance to the Force requires the destruction of the Sith.

That's not exactly true. the force is both light AND dark. to be balanced it needs some of each. Ying and Yang, day and night. one can't survive without the other

[Roonan]

Originally Posted by wormraper

That's not exactly true.

Yes, it is.

Originally Posted by wormraper

the force is both light AND dark. to be balanced it needs some of each. Ying and Yang, day and night. one can't survive without the other

And where did I say otherwise? The Sith are not the dark side. The Sith make the dark side overcome the light (when previously they were equally balanced). That's why the destruction of the Sith brings balance to the Force.