Sony Black Crush on late-2014 / early-2015 BDs

[jscoggins]

Added Annie (2014) to the OP per Phil92's post.

[ryanmj1993]

So I e-mailed Sony and sent them some screen cap comparisons between the HD broadcast of My Girl and the Blu-Ray and this was their response.

Dear Ryan,

Thank you for your interest in Sony Pictures Home Entertainment products.

Thank you for providing these pictures Ryan, they will assist us in solving this issue as soon as possible.

Please let us know if there is anything else we can do to assist you.

Regards,

Max
SPHE Consumer Affairs
800-860-2878

Better than nothing I guess.

[Poya]

No longer possible. Annie has black crush. Latest review:

On the downside, black levels appear a bit too murky than would be ideal, overpowering certain scenes and pushing slightly purple in others, with a sprinkling of noise evident in a couple of instances.

[tama]

Annies screenshots look close to whats in the theatrical HD trailer to me.

Annie Official Final Trailer (2014) - Jamie Foxx, Quvenzhané Wallis Movie HD - YouTube

[Wernski]

Originally Posted by ryanmj1993

So I e-mailed Sony and sent them some screen cap comparisons between the HD broadcast of My Girl and the Blu-Ray and this was their response.



Better than nothing I guess.

Much more promising than the reply filmmusic got back on page 5:

Thank you for your interest in Sony Pictures Home Entertainment products.

Have you tried modifying your video settings on the television? There is currently no known issue with this movie's release. If the problem persists, we'd be happy to test the movie for you.

Please let us know if there is anything else we can do to assist you.

Regards,

Maybe they're starting to wake up.

[amoergosum]

Well, I've sent them two emails and never received a reply.

[wesslan]

We should ask Bill at Digital Bits to look into this with Sony. He is good at these things.

[filmmusic]

Originally Posted by Wernski

Much more promising than the reply filmmusic got back on page 5:

i sent them an email again after that explaining the situation (with screenshots attached), and I never heard back.

[BONKERS]

Hey guys registered just for this.

I wanted to chime in that some people are missing the point of almost all of these comparisons. This is not about the level of luma detail present or luma/chroma resolution or compression level.

This is entirely about ONLY the black levels of the film. How the colors are mapped digitally.

When 16-235 is incorrectly mapped to 0-255 (And vice versa expanded/contracted) the value of the information present is stretched and thus clipped. No detail is actually present in these values other than a singular value. Pure white. Or pure Black on a greyscale.

Hence the term "Black Crush" because information that was originally there is not present anymore.

For example I took a comparison from this thread and expanded one to clip the black/white levels and create crush.

Pay only mind to the black levels and not the grading differences and other differences from the un matched frames and insane compression present
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/115142

[BONKERS]

I tried to reply before , but it seems it never got approved?

Anywho, some people seem to be mistaking what this is all about. This is purely about the greyscale range being stretched/clipped to remove detail that SHOULD be there.

This isn't about the image compression from different sources, color grading differences, chroma detail differences.

So for example, from comparisons posted early I converted the proper detail image and clipped the greyscale levels to expand to 0-255 to show exactly what is wrong with these masters.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=92201

Notice low grey scale range (shadow detail) is non-existent now. People that had clearly definable features are now just one mass of black.

[ryanmj1993]

Honestly I think people should just keep flooding them with e-mails and complaints.

[jscoggins]

You know what's funny?

Sony invented BD.

[Kristian Idol]

You know, I'm pretty lenient when it comes to PQ - many upscaled DVDs look fine to me - but The Interview surprised me. The blacks are just crushed to death.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by BONKERS

I tried to reply before , but it seems it never got approved?

Anywho, some people seem to be mistaking what this is all about. This is purely about the greyscale range being stretched/clipped to remove detail that SHOULD be there.

This isn't about the image compression from different sources, color grading differences, chroma detail differences.

So for example, from comparisons posted early I converted the proper detail image and clipped the greyscale levels to expand to 0-255 to show exactly what is wrong with these masters.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=92201

Notice low grey scale range (shadow detail) is non-existent now. People that had clearly definable features are now just one mass of black.

We understand the ideas involved. The problem is that detail isn't always meant to be seen. This same issue came up with Escape From New York, where people insisted the transfer was too dark because some detail from DVD was missing. However DVD was never perfect, and perhaps that detail was never meant to be visible.

I get the black crush concerns, but in the end the Polish BD and general DVD look too bright and blown-out, that detail doesn't look like it was meant to be there in my opinion. Some screens of the Sony BD definitely look too dark, but I don't remember them looking that dark when I watched the BD, so that could be a calibration issue.

In the end my point is opinion enters into this a lot more than you guys admit. You're trying to portray it as a factual problem, but it's not.

[filmmusic]

Originally Posted by ryanmj1993

Honestly I think people should just keep flooding them with e-mails and complaints.

At this point the problematic releases are so many, that I doubt they'll "correct" any!

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

In the end my point is opinion enters into this a lot more than you guys admit. You're trying to portray it as a factual problem, but it's not.

Well, yes and no. It is definitely a matter of opinion, but the only opinions that count are those of the filmmakers. The director and DP agree on a transfer they're happy with, with black levels they approve. After that, it's most definitely a factual problem. The home video releases either do or do not match the version the filmmakers approved for release.

My contention remains that these BDs do not match the versions approved by the filmmakers, and that the other versions we are seeing (DVD, UltraViolet, Netflix, foreign BDs) all do match what the filmmakers want us to see. We're not talking about a slight difference. THE INTERVIEW looks radically different on BD. Either the filmmakers changed it completely (which, I grant, is possible), or Sony seriously screwed it up. There is no third possibility.

Ideally, we'll hear something from the filmmakers themselves soon to settle everything once and for all. If I'm wrong, I'll gladly admit it. All the evidence just points to this being a mastering error with Sony's BDs for the past month.

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by filmmusic

At this point the problematic releases are so many, that I doubt they'll "correct" any!

I hope for two things.

- that we can stop this mess before more titles are impacted
- that at least the biggest titles (THE INTERVIEW and FURY) get fixed.

I agree though, I hold out little hope that the catalog titles will be corrected, sadly.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

Well, yes and no. It is definitely a matter of opinion, but the only opinions that count are those of the filmmakers. The director and DP agree on a transfer they're happy with, with black levels they approve. After that, it's most definitely a factual problem. The home video releases either do or do not match the version the filmmakers approved for release.

My contention remains that these BDs do not match the versions approved by the filmmakers, and that the other versions we are seeing (DVD, UltraViolet, Netflix, foreign BDs) all do match what the filmmakers want us to see. We're not talking about a slight difference. THE INTERVIEW looks radically different on BD. Either the filmmakers changed it completely (which, I grant, is possible), or Sony seriously screwed it up. There is no third possibility.

Ideally, we'll hear something from the filmmakers themselves soon to settle everything once and for all. If I'm wrong, I'll gladly admit it. All the evidence just points to this being a mastering error with Sony's BDs for the past month.

Well I can only comment on Fury, which to me looks better on the Sony BD than the others in most of the caps. Some caps DO make the Sony BD look insanely black, but I didn't have that experience watching it, so I am going to go more with the other caps that make it look superior and the DVD/foreign BD look blown out and grey.

Just going by the caps posted I do think The Interview looks insanely dark and screwed up, but that's just a quick reaction looking at caps.

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Well I can only comment on Fury, which to me looks better on the Sony BD than the others in most of the caps. Some caps DO make the Sony BD look insanely black, but I didn't have that experience watching it, so I am going to go more with the other caps that make it look superior and the DVD/foreign BD look blown out and grey.

Just going by the caps posted I do think The Interview looks insanely dark and screwed up, but that's just a quick reaction looking at caps.

THE INTERVIEW is the one I really care about in all this mess. It's the one I've done numerous caps for. I'm not so familiar with Fury, but the caps from other people present a convincing picture. However so many Sony titles all in one group suggests a problem with their overall output.

And since these discs will be the definitive record of these films, at least for the next decade or so, I think they should reproduce exactly what the filmmakers intended, no matter how light or dark that may be. I would absolutely admit I'm wrong if we learn the filmmakers have chosen these looks, I just doubt that's the case.

[jscoggins]

If we were talking about one movie, then maybe yes, we could attribute the DVD and various digital copy versions being artificially brightened.

There is no way that a range of movies, made by different filmmakers with very different styles in different time periods, would all end up this way without this being a problem. Furthermore, these are all released by the same studio.

The only common denominator, then, is that Sony has messed up something.