Sony Black Crush on late-2014 / early-2015 BDs

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by jscoggins

The issue is not "too dark" or "too bright". Black crush can be applied even to scenes that take place in broad daylight.

Yep, this is the key, very confusing point. We're not talking about films being "too dark".

MY BEST FRIEND'S WEDDING suffers from black crush, but because 90% of the film takes place in broad daylight, it's only obvious in the shadowy areas in any shot. I only found it truly distracting in two scenes - one where Julia Roberts is on a riverboat and it passes under a dark bridge, and another at the wedding at the end, which takes place at night. However that doesn't mean it's not present in every shot, once you look. All the dark areas (no matter how small) of every shot in the film are evenly pitch black, lacking any details whatsoever, as illustrated in the caps in the first post.

[filmmusic]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

Yep, this is the key, very confusing point. We're not talking about films being "too dark".

MY BEST FRIEND'S WEDDING suffers from black crush, but because 90% of the film takes place in broad daylight, it's only obvious in the shadowy areas in any shot. I only found it truly distracting in two scenes - one where Julia Roberts is on a riverboat and it passes under a dark bridge, and another at the wedding at the end, which takes place at night. However that doesn't mean it's not present in every shot, once you look. All the dark areas (no matter how small) of every shot in the film are evenly pitch black, lacking any details whatsoever, as illustrated in the caps in the first post.

This is my favourite romantic comedy!
I'm very moved by certain scenes like the bridge scene you mention plus it's a film I saw at a turning point of my life as I had said.
I'm so sad that i can't buy the Bluray!
And i don't think there's hope of fixing it.

Maybe I'll end up buying the previous release in the end..

[EddieLarkin]

Does the UK region free disc of MY BEST FRIEND'S WEDDING use the same transfer as the US disc? It's less than $10 on Amazon.co.uk. It came out 7 years ago so it obviously won't have the black crush issue.

[filmmusic]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

Does the UK region free disc of MY BEST FRIEND'S WEDDING use the same transfer as the US disc? It's less than $10 on Amazon.co.uk. It came out 7 years ago so it obviously won't have the black crush issue.

No, it's not the same. It doesn't have the black crush problem, but of course it has less detail in other areas.

[EddieLarkin]

Oh, too bad.

[Naiera]

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

Not at all.

Yes, very all. This is just another instance of reviewers giving top marks to deeply flawed Blu-rays.

[dmollenauer]

I sent an email to the clowns at Sony. I have no plans to buy any of the affected discs, but they need to know. And I don't want it affecting any future releases I may want to purchase. To all the people that cannot tell there is an issue, then ignorance is bliss I suppose.

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by dmollenauer

I sent an email to the clowns at Sony. I have no plans to buy any of the affected discs, but they need to know. And I don't want it affecting any future releases I may want to purchase. To all the people that cannot tell there is an issue, then ignorance is bliss I suppose.

The more people who email and, preferably, call the 800 number:1-800-860-2878 the better the chances are of getting things fixed. We need lots of voices on record. When I called about two weeks ago, someone else had already called that day, I was happy to learn.

That said, the best chance is if the filmmakers tell Sony these discs are defective. Without going into details, I remain optimistic that will happen soon.

[Mobe1969]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

The more people who email and, preferably, call the 800 number:1-800-860-2878 the better the chances are of getting things fixed. We need lots of voices on record. When I called about two weeks ago, someone else had already called that day, I was happy to learn.

That said, the best chance is if the filmmakers tell Sony these discs are defective. Without going into details, I remain optimistic that will happen soon.

How do you go about explaining it to them verbally, or finding someone who actually understands what you are talking about?

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by Mobe1969

How do you go about explaining it to them verbally, or finding someone who actually understands what you are talking about?

To the people at the Sony 800 number? Just be specific, and describe what we all have noticed here, and ask to speak with a supervisor. I don't think I should give out the name of the guy I spoke with, no reason to get personal, but he was helpful and took notes when I called. I don't know how much of an impact that call had, but more like it will definitely mean something. He had already had one other that day.

Obviously, be cheerful and polite. There's nothing more useless than being unpleasant or rude. If that's how you're going to act, don't bother calling, you'll do us more harm than good.

Just stress it's not your TV that has image problems, it's their discs.

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by Naiera

Yes, very all. This is just another instance of reviewers giving top marks to deeply flawed Blu-rays.

Nope. If the reviewer didn't have a disc to compare it to, then why would they give it bad marks? Like I said, Fury didn't play as dark as the screen caps look on my setup, which is calibrated. So why should a reviewer somehow automatically know it's too dark? You're giving too much credit to what you think people SHOULD know, when in fact reviewers see many films every week and would have zero clue if it's "perfect" or not. I had no problem seeing everything that happened in Fury, so why would I just assume it's not supposed to be that dark without other reference? I wouldn't, and neither would a reviewer.

And let's stop the hyperbole - these discs aren't "deeply flawed." They are somewhat dark, but they are far form unwatchable, and every other aspect of the disc is spot on.

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

And let's stop the hyperbole - these discs aren't "deeply flawed." They are somewhat dark, but they are far form unwatchable, and every other aspect of the disc is spot on.

Try watching THE INTERVIEW on BD. Try seeing what is happening in at least half the frame during any of the dark scenes (about half the film at least). You won't be able to. The bright areas of the frame look decent, true, but any dark areas look like you are viewing them through sunglasses. That film is truly my focus here, and calling its BD "deeply flawed" is being generous, it is a disaster.

UV:

BD:


That film was shot to be exceptionally dark. The filmmakers talk about Michael Mann's THE INSIDER as their visual touchstone on the commentary, saying they wanted to avoid the common practice of making comedies brightly lit, and instead shoot it like a political thriller. As a result, pushing the dark areas a bit further than intended, as the BD does, makes it unwatchable.

And I'll remind everyone that for that film, we can compare the BD to:
- the UltraViolet
- the DVD
- the Netflix streaming version
- and even the HD clips in the featurettes on the BD
all of which are identical and normal looking.

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

Try watching THE INTERVIEW on BD. Try seeing what is happening in at least half the frame during any of the dark scenes (about half the film at least). You won't be able to. The bright areas of the frame look decent, true, but any dark areas look like you are viewing them through sunglasses. That film is truly my focus here, and calling it "deeply flawed" is being generous, the BD is a disaster.

UV:

BD:


That film was shot to be exceptionally dark. The filmmakers talk about Michael Mann's THE INSIDER as their visual touchstone on the commentary, saying they wanted to avoid the common practice of making comedies brightly lit, and instead shoot it like a political thriller. As a result, pushing the dark areas a bit further than intended, as the BD does, makes it unwatchable.

Again, what you call unwatchable, I don't. That cap - as an example - I can still easily see it's Seth Rogen. If I couldn't, THEN I'd call it unwatchable. So you can't see the darker areas... Most of Fury was also in the dark, and it has the same levels of black crush, yet I could still tell what was going on, watched the whole thing and got the whole story.

Not defending Sony, but I've seen plenty of worse discs out there that ARE unwatchable. Have to respectfully disagree.

Not to mention, a deeply flawed disc to me would be one that has to go back and be rescanned and redone completely. It's clear that these masters are fine, but the encoding got somewhat botched. So the fine detail is there, the grain is intact, pretty much everything is perfect except the black levels. Hardly a "deep flaw" but an easy fix.

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

Again, what you call unwatchable, I don't. That cap - as an example - I can still see it's Seth Rogen. If I couldn't, THEN I'd call it unwatchable.

Not defending Sony, but I've seen plenty of worse discs out there that ARE unwatchable.

My point is that it is nowhere near what the filmmakers intended. That, to me is unwatchable. Obviously you can still tell what is basically going on onscreen, it is not an entirely pitch black frame. However it is so far from what I saw in theaters twice that I cannot focus on the film while watching it. I am distracted by the black blobs all over the place. The filmmakers did not intend that.

And the tiger scene, which is capped in the first post, takes place in almost pitch blackness. There, it truly is impossible to make out what is happening in much of the frame.

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

Not to mention, a deeply flawed disc to me would be one that has to go back and be rescanned and redone completely. It's clear that these masters are fine, but the encoding got somewhat botched. So the fine detail is there, the grain is intact, pretty much everything is perfect except the black levels. Hardly a "deep flaw" but an easy fix.

I hope we don't have to argue about the definitions of "unwatchable" and "deeply flawed". The BD is from a perfectly gorgeous master. I made that clear. It's the master used for the UV, the DVD, the Netflix stream, the featurettes on the BD. The fine detail is there in the master, but not on the BD in the dark areas. Make the BD as bright as you want, you will find nothing but even black blobs in those areas.

The disc needs to be reauthored completely and re-released. I call that "deeply flawed", and something that should never have made it to store shelves.

[Wernski]

I agree, it's a little unfair to hang out reviewers who didn't pick up on this to dry. Most reviewers just look at the one disc they're given to review, so can't/won't spot issues by comparison... in these instances, they wouldn't know how much of those blacks were always flat black or not.

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

Like I said, Fury didn't play as dark as the screen caps look on my setup, which is calibrated.

Are you saying your blu-ray of The Fury doesn't have the black crush depicted in the screenshot comparisons posted here? You could see the detail in those areas?

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

My point is that it is nowhere near what the filmmakers intended. That, to me is unwatchable. Obviously you can still tell what is basically going on onscreen, it is not an entirely pitch black frame. However it is so far from what I saw in theaters twice that I cannot focus on the film while watching it. I am distracted by the black blobs all over the place. The filmmakers did not intend that.

And the tiger scene, which is capped in the first post, takes place in almost pitch blackness. There, it truly is impossible to make out what is happening in much of the frame.



I hope we don't have to argue about the definitions of "unwatchable" and "deeply flawed". The BD is from a perfectly gorgeous master. I made that clear. It's the master used for the UV, the DVD, the Netflix stream, the featurettes on the BD. The fine detail is there in the master, but not on the BD in the dark areas. Make the BD as bright as you want, you will find nothing but even black blobs in those areas.

The disc needs to be reauthored completely and re-released. I call that "deeply flawed", and something that should never have made it to store shelves.

We don't have to argue about anything. We don't agree, and that's fine. But I also see a lot of transfers that should've never made it to store shelves, yet it happens. And some of them are watchable, and some are not. i just don't count these Sony titles to be unwatchable, and that's my opinion, because I've seen several of them, and they were watchable to me.

Originally Posted by Wernski

Are you saying your blu-ray of The Fury doesn't have the black crush depicted in the screenshot comparisons posted here? You could see the detail in those areas?

No, I ripped my disc after the fact and it has the same dark blacks. They just didn't play that dark on my television. It wasn't as bright as the Polish disc, but wasn't so dark I couldn't tell what was happening at any time. At the end of the day, though, I didn't like the film enough to care if the picture was correct or not.

[Naiera]

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

Nope. If the reviewer didn't have a disc to compare it to, then why would they give it bad marks? Like I said, Fury didn't play as dark as the screen caps look on my setup, which is calibrated.

You don't seem to fully grasp the issue and you're handing out smug "nopes". I find that rather infuriating

Fury actually comes with clips from the movie that don't have black crush. This is not merely about being "too dark"; it's about detail being completely removed from the discs!

[StingingVelvet]

The Interview definitely looks bad, bad enough to impact viewing. Fury looks like an amazing 5 star transfer if you don't have anything to compare it to. Even when comparing I think it looks better, crush or not.

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

My point is that it is nowhere near what the filmmakers intended.

My personal opinion is that it'd help if people didn't post speculation and dress it up as fact.

I've already posted reasoning as to why something is on the OCN doesn't mean that we were supposed to see it, and yet that's been completely ignored.

Maybe I've missed something. Maybe there's an interview or a quote with director or DoP saying this isn't what the film is supposed to look like. Right?

Wrong.

I'm open-minded to the debate. Maybe the discs are too dark. Maybe they're not. But the only evidence we have so far is that there is detail missing which is on other versions, and as has been noted this isn't conclusive evidence at all.

Can we please wait for a definitive statement.

Steve W

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Naiera

You don't seem to fully grasp the issue and you're handing out smug "nopes". I find that rather infuriating

Fury actually comes with clips from the movie that don't have black crush. This is not merely about being "too dark"; it's about detail being completely removed from the discs!

Please see the above post.

Steve W