Still not convinced

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Is it still inappropriate if the filmmaker approved it?

No, but it would be nice if the disc would include the original theatrical version of the movie, as well.

The other difficulty is in finding out whether or not the HDR grade is filmmaker approved. Outside of the movies that had theatrical HDR grades, I'm only aware of three UHD releases that I know for certain have filmmaker-approved HDR grades (Exodus, The Martian and Sicario). And there's one upcoming one that I know for sure isn't filmmaker approved (Lawrence of Arabia). So far, there's no provenance or explanation provided on the disc packaging, so we're on our own trying to figure out whether or not the filmmakers have been consulted on the re-grade.

[bruceames]

I agree with you Doctorossi. It would be nice to have proof that the filmmakers really approved these HDR regrades. Lawrence of Arabia will be very controversial when it comes out on UHD. Hopefully they'll include both versions, but if not, I still have the Sony 4K download and it looks gorgeous.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

I agree with you Doctorossi. It would be nice to have proof that the filmmakers really approved these HDR regrades. Lawrence of Arabia will be very controversial when it comes out on UHD. Hopefully they'll include both versions, but if not, I still have the Sony 4K download and it looks gorgeous.

Yup

[bruceames]

Come to think of it I would be surprised if Sony didn't include both versions of this (HDR and non-HDR). They know a large percentage of sales of this movie (and many classics for that matter) are from cinephiles who hate revisionism. Plus more discs in the package and they can jack the price up. It also provides a before/after look which may convert some skeptics and if not at least the wife will probably want to see the HDR version more (kinda like seeing colorized It's a Wonderful Life but not to that extreme, because the 10 bit data is already there in the print and nothing is being added).

Besides, Fox has already gone on record as saying they won't regrade any movies in HDR without filmmaker approval. So including both would be a way to bring out the classics looking better than ever, while catering to those who don't want HDR in those movies. Since the major classics have already been released on Blu-ray, instead of having a UHD HDR / BD combo, make it a UHD HDR / UHD non-HDR combo instead.

HDR if done right looks very natural and makes it look more real at the same time. It's how you use the 10 bits that counts. For example the movie Wild. The scenes with sunlight, campfires, and other lighting look like they do in real life, and not subdued because the format is limited to 8 bit. That's how it was captured on camera too. Why not see it that way?

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Come to think of it I would be surprised if Sony didn't include both versions of this (HDR and non-HDR).

I would love to see them take that approach, but I fear that they won't. The pledge from Fox is a great first step and I really want to see the other studios step up and pledge the same (or, at least, that they will always include the original version if they are selling a re-grade, too).

It feels like such a missed opportunity that the Dolby Vision HDR format was designed to allow SDR and HDR grades to be derived from a single transport stream, seemingly to solve this very issue, but the implementation on the UHD format has managed to neuter its ability to do so. If this can be corrected in the future and all players can offer a button-press solution to switch to an accurate SDR grade, we'd have the best of all worlds.

[Geoff D]

But the irony is that by the time Dolby Vision compatible players & software arrive then the SDR mapping issue may well have been cracked.

Dolby themselves are fully aware of this and have their own Content Mapping Unit (CMU) which generates the requisite metadata from whichever source, so even though the UHD Blu implementation of DV doesn't use an SDR layer at all we should still get a far more 'authentic' SDR grade from a Dolby Vision disc.

This is providing that the stars align re: dynamic metadata which hopefully the DV players will be able to read directly and output the internally-remapped grade accordingly, avoiding the small wrinkle that you might need a new HDR TV with HDMI 2.1 (or whatever it gets revised to) in order to view the true SDR downgrade

[bruceames]

Good point Geoff. Dolby Vision will apparently cure all ills, if/when it comes out. I think it's still about two years away for affordable DV tvs, at least the OLEDs (and who knows when we'll see the discs), so that's why I took the intermediate step of going from non-HDR to HDR-lite (also to get a later model 3DTV, because who knows how much longer they'll be available), rather than wait that long for it to all come together (and when it does, I'll have yet another visual upgrade to look forward to).

[KubrickKurasawa]

Sounds like HDR is the new 3D in that some people like it and others hate it.

GG 4k tech, GG.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by KubrickKurasawa

Sounds like HDR is the new 3D in that some people like it and others hate it.

GG 4k tech, GG.

The only ones (with a few exceptions perhaps) I've seen that hate it are the ones who haven't seen it.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But the irony is that by the time Dolby Vision compatible players & software arrive then the SDR mapping issue may well have been cracked.

As long as we get there! And hopefully sooner, rather than later.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by KubrickKurasawa

Sounds like HDR is the new 3D in that some people like it and others hate it.

GG 4k tech, GG.

I think it's great as long as it isn't applied where it doesn't belong.

[MisterXDTV]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

This is providing that the stars align re: dynamic metadata which hopefully the players will be able to read directly and output accordingly, avoiding the small wrinkle that you might need a new HDR TV with HDMI 2.1 (or whatever it gets revised to) in order to view the true SDR downgrade

This is hilarious: to watch the original SDR grade, you will probably need HDMI 2.1 (or whatever)

Being Dolby Vision optional on UHD Blu-ray specs, I don't think it's ever gonna happen. Studios don't want to pay Dolby anyway... HDR-10 is free...

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

(CMU)

never heard of it.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

This is hilarious: to watch the original SDR grade, you will probably need HDMI 2.1 (or whatever)

Being Dolby Vision optional on UHD Blu-ray specs, I don't think it's evere gonna happen. Studios don't want to pay Dolby anyway... HDR-10 is free...

I'd just like to know now whether it will or it won't. It creates a lot of unnecessary uncertainty, the kind of uncertainly that will get people to hold back like they do in a format war.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

Being Dolby Vision optional on UHD Blu-ray specs, I don't think it's ever gonna happen. Studios don't want to pay Dolby anyway... HDR-10 is free...

Not only do they not want to pay Dolby if they don't have to, they also probably don't feel a lot of incentive to help their customers disable their EXCITING NEW FEATURE!



We know you like steak- you've been eating it for years!

We're pretty sure you're going to like our delicious new chocolate sauce, too.

So, sit back and relax, folks- we're just going to pour this delicious chocolate sauce all over your awesome steak and you're going to love it!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

never heard of it.

That's funny, I'm sure I've heard it mentioned very recently

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

Being Dolby Vision optional on UHD Blu-ray specs, I don't think it's ever gonna happen. Studios don't want to pay Dolby anyway... HDR-10 is free...

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

Not only do they not want to pay Dolby if they don't have to, they also probably don't feel a lot of incentive to help their customers disable their EXCITING NEW FEATURE!

But you guys aren't looking at it from the other angle: introducing Dolby Vision™ branded kit & discs will only induce yet another wave of upgrading for the chronically afflicted tech heads who must HAV DER AITCH DEE ARR!1!! (getting a properly mapped SDR output will be the lowest bullet point on the spec list, if it's even mentioned at all)

And besides, Warners and Sony have already formally announced a tie-up each with Dolby to master their HDR content at the source level so getting DV discs from them is a matter of 'when' not 'if' IMO. Fox, Paramount and Lionsgate have also done DV grades for theatrical release (that's off the top of my head, can't be bothered to check the remaining big players) so switching to DV UHD when the time comes won't be a big jump for them either.

[bruceames]

Well I tend to look at things on the bright side and if it introduces another upgrade in two years then it's something to look forward to. I can always upgrade the TV and player again (like I always do anyway) but I don't like the thought of having to rebuy discs that I paid $30 for. If the studios do plan to use DV then I wish they would encode it on the discs right now.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Well I tend to look at things on the bright side and if it introduces another upgrade in two years then it's something to look forward to. I can always upgrade the TV and player again but I don't like the thought of having to rebuy discs that I paid $30 for. If the studios do plan to use DV then I wish they would encode it on the discs right now.

I wouldn't bet against the UHD release of The Martian Director's Cut having both a Dolby Vision HDR encode AND a Dolby Atmos audio mix.

It's strange at first glance that they won't encode DV to discs now, but then again without the silicon to properly decode it from disc (apart from in test labs) I think they want to wait until proper consumer decoding solutions are in place and ready for prime time.

[jaaguir]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Is it still inappropriate if the filmmaker approved it? What about director's cuts of a movie, are they inappropriate too? For that matter, what about films or TV shows that were originally conceptualized with standard definition in mind? It is inappropriate to see them at a higher resolution because the CGI will look fake?

So many questions...

I know I'm the revisionist of the forum, but I do love the idea of HDR bringing out all the contrast range (while appropriate) that was already captured on the film negative or the camera digital file.

The original color timing doesn't have to change, it will just look better, richer. Just look at all the phone pics comparing blu-ray and UHD. Crude as they are, I think they show that it's not like the UHD + HDR grading has a substantially different artistic aesthetic in any way.

When it comes to really old movies on blu-ray, like 1930s and before, in many cases we were already seeing them with better quality than they could at movie theaters at the time. HDR is just the logical next step forward, and I don't get all the ruckus. But I know very well that this is just poor wicked me!!!!!! (at least in this forum)

[scollaco]

Originally Posted by jaaguir

So many questions...

I know I'm the revisionist of the forum, but I do love the idea of HDR bringing out all the contrast range (while appropriate) that was already captured on the film negative or the camera digital file.

The original color timing doesn't have to change, it will just look better, richer. Just look at all the phone pics comparing blu-ray and UHD. Crude as they are, I think they show that it's not like the UHD + HDR grading has a substantially different artistic aesthetic in any way.

When it comes to really old movies on blu-ray, like 1930s and before, in many cases we were already seeing them with better quality than they could at movie theaters at the time. HDR is just the logical next step forward, and I don't get all the ruckus. But I know very well that this is just poor wicked me!!!!!! (at least in this forum)

Can you point me the to the links for the phone pics comparing bluray and UHD please? I can't seem to find them on the forum. Thanks!

EDIT: I found this link

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=273716

Is this what you are referring to?