HDR Discussion Thread

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

I have no reason to question his knowledge/sources.

He stated “my sources tell me”. I think we both agree that the source(s) were most likely “Samsung” sources. Did it ever occur to you that maybe Samsung has incentive to spread misinformation, trying to slow down the momentum of Dolby Vision?

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by DanBa

All my information come from the Internet. I only relay good information.

The related information is nonsense for me:

"


Ultra HD Blu-ray white paper:
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Assets/Do...0729_clean.pdf

"BDMV HDR [aka "HDR10"] video stream is an HEVC video stream (10bit, YCbCr 4:2:0).

The [dual layer] Dolby Vision video stream is composed of a BDMV HDR video stream and a Dolby Vision enhancement layer video stream. The enhancement layer is an HEVC video stream with embedded Dolby Vision metadata.

The Philips HDR video stream is a BDMV HDR video stream with Philips HDR SEI messages."


If HDR10+ is added into the BDA specification, it could be as follows:
The HDR10+ video stream is a BDMV HDR video stream with Samsung HDR SEI messages (i.e. "ST 2094-40 dynamic metadata for color volume transform").
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...-displays.html

If the single layer Dolby Vision, like the Dolby Vision currently used by Apple, is added into the BDA specification, it could be as follows:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post55030904
The single layer Dolby Vision video stream is a BDMV HDR video stream with Dolby HDR SEI messages (i.e. "ST 2094-10 dynamic metadata").


It makes no sense that HDR10+ can replace BDMV HDR (aka "HDR10") and become a mandatory base layer: the others HDR formats have their own specific metadata, the Samsung metadata have no use for their own specific color volume mapping / display adaptation / tone-gamut mapping,

i.e.

the video stream of other HDR formats and HDR10+ is always a BDMV HDR video stream with specific HEVC SEI messages or specific metadata for specific color volume mapping.

BDMV HDR (aka "HDR10") is and will remain the mandatory base layer for Ultra HD Blu-ray."

You're free to think that it's nonsense, however, this is a person who has proven in the past to have solid sources that have given him accurate information.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

He stated “my sources tell me”. I think we both agree that the source(s) were most likely “Samsung” sources. Did it ever occur to you that maybe Samsung has incentive to spread misinformation, trying to slow down the momentum of Dolby Vision?

DV has no momentum. At all.

You have no idea who the sources are. What we do know, is that this is coming from someone who has already provided a ton of accurate information in the past.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

DV has no momentum. At all.

Dinile swing.jpg

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

[Show spoiler] Attachment 185253

First major Sony & Paramount titles roll out. Warner's Westworld is about to come out, with IT (one of the most successful horror films of all time) soon to follow. Stranger Things Season 2 is the biggest thing streaming right now. Apple TV makes a HUGE marketing push. Sony's top of the line TV update imminent...yep. You'd have to be in some serious denial to think there's no momentum for DV.

Or just trolling.

I think we all know what's more likely here.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

You're free to think that it's nonsense, however, this is a person who has proven in the past to have solid sources that have given him accurate information.

Really?
About specific BDA (agenda/voting/meetings), prior to a reporter or BDA spokesperson saying as much on the internet in English or another language? Please offer the link to such an original, exclusive statement as proof.

I agree that track record is important with regards to credibility. I’m not surprised if this or that hobbyist has at times provided inside information regarding a certain brand TV, UHD BD player or other device thru friends they’ve made with this or that particular company, but accurate, specific, non-speculative info about BDA proceedings is an entirely different matter.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

He stated “my sources tell me”. I think we both agree that the source(s) were most likely “Samsung” sources. Did it ever occur to you that maybe Samsung has incentive to spread misinformation, trying to slow down the momentum of Dolby Vision?

Honestly, that never occurred to me.
That would be even worse, as it implies the person is knowingly or unknowingly being used (corruptly) by a consumer electronics company.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Really?
About specific BDA (agenda/voting/meetings), prior to a reporter or BDA spokesperson saying as much on the internet in English or another language? Please offer the link to such an original, exclusive statement as proof.

I agree that track record is important with regards to credibility. I’m not surprised if this or that hobbyist has at times provided inside information regarding a certain brand TV, UHD BD player or other device thru friends they’ve made with this or that particular company, but accurate, specific, non-speculative info about BDA proceedings is an entirely different matter.

He's got contacts within several TV manufacturers, streaming services, AT&T the FCC, etc. I haven't seen every single one of his posts, as he's been a member there since 2002, but I don't see why it would be out of the realm of possibility that he has contacts within the BDA, especially since the board members are mostly comprised of tv manufacturers and movie studios.

His track record speaks for itself.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

First major Sony & Paramount titles roll out. Warner's Westworld is about to come out, with IT (one of the most successful horror films of all time) soon to follow. Stranger Things Season 2 is the biggest thing streaming right now. Apple TV makes a HUGE marketing push. Sony's top of the line TV update imminent...yep. You'd have to be in some serious denial to think there's no momentum for DV.

Or just trolling.

I think we all know what's more likely here.

19 DV discs out of 300+ UHD discs.

Stranger Things 2 is streaming in HDR10.

Apple TV has been a huge mess.

WB made such a huge deal out of their first DV title that they didn't even bother to mention it officially or display the DV logo on the disc in most parts of the world.

HUGE momentum there.

[Jason 831]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

19 DV discs out of 300+ UHD discs.

Stranger Things 2 is streaming in HDR10.

Apple TV has been a huge mess.

WB made such a huge deal out of their first DV title that they didn't even bother to mention it officially or display the DV logo on the disc in most parts of the world.

HUGE momentum there.

Stranger Things is streaming in Dolby Vision as well and looks great.

Does HDR10+ has more momentum? Lets get HDR10+ content first

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

I have no reason to question his knowledge/sources. He's provided a ton of correct information in the past. That's the only reason I put any stock into his claim. Some people on this forum, including DanBa, have relayed information that was passed on from him in the past as well.

He said recently that a decision by the BDA is expected by CES 2018. As you are obviously well connected yourself, you can verify if that's accurate or not.

Even if that's relatively accurate, I don't think you realize how slow the standardization committees work. It usually takes years to adopt new standards. I've been on standardization committees. By the time most standards are adopted, everyone is on to the next technology.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Plenty of information on this in the HDR thread.

The above ^ was your response to Dubstar’s question of “and remind me what is the benefit of HDR10+ encoding ?”

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...42&postcount=9

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

HDR10+, much like DV, will be just another very subtle improvement.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

I'm not really pining for it, as I don't expect it to be a big upgrade.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

My post about those movies coming out in HDR10+ was just meant to poke the DV fanatics. But in reality, I don't expect them to look significantly better in HDR10+ than they will in HDR10.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

DV is technically the better format, but 12 bit and 4:2:2 do not matter on current displays, despite hopeful claims to the contrary. The dynamic metadata is what's providing a very very subtle upgrade, which is what HDR10+ will be providing.

The above ^ was my post containing your thoughts on what HDR10+ will bring to the table over HDR10.

Below is your response to this post.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

All of this was before all the widespread issues with DV. Theoretically, it should have been an improvement over HDR10, but that has not been the case.

Anyways, stop derailing the thread.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

All of this was before all the widespread issues with DV.

Your response ^ makes no since, as it deals only with Dolby Vision.

How about explaining what you mean by your response.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Even if that's relatively accurate, I don't think you realize how slow the standardization committees work. It usually takes years to adopt new standards. I've been on standardization committees. By the time most standards are adopted, everyone is on to the next technology.

How long did it take for the BDA to adopt HDR10 as the standard on 4K discs?

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

You're free to think that it's nonsense, however, this is a person who has proven in the past to have solid sources that have given him accurate information.

This information makes no sense to me.
Do you see any flaw in my argument?

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by DanBa

This information makes no sense to me.
Do you see any flaw in my argument?

The part of your argument that doesn't make sense to me is the assumption that two dynamic HDR formats cannot coexist on the same disc.

Here is what Scott Wilkinson had to say in an article from a few months ago:

As mentioned earlier, HDR10+ is a royalty-free, open standard like HDR10. Even better, it’s backward compatible with HDR10; an HDR10+ stream can be embedded with both static and dynamic metadata.

http://www.avsforum.com/hdr10-samsung-qledhdr10-summit/

HDR10+ is identical to static HDR10, with the only addition being the dynamic metadata, and it is backwards compatible with HDR10, since an HDR10+ stream can be embedded with both static and dynamic metadata. Thus, displays that support HDR10 but not HDR10+ will be able to display the content in HDR10 by simply ignoring the dynamic metadata. The DV enhancement layer, too, should be able to ignore the dynamic metadata of HDR10+, and behave in a similar manner to the way it does now, when it sits atop the HDR10 layer.

Doesn't seem like it would be a headache at all.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

The part of your argument that doesn't make sense to me is the assumption that two dynamic HDR formats cannot coexist on the same disc.
...

Where did I say that?

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by DanBa

Where did I say that?

Ok, let me rephrase. The part of your argument that doesn't make sense is the assumption that HDR10+ becoming the base layer will cause any issues with other dynamic HDR formats, for the reasons I outlined above.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

HDR10+ is identical to static HDR10, with the only addition being the dynamic metadata, and it is backwards compatible with HDR10, since an HDR10+ stream can be embedded with both static and dynamic metadata. ...
The DV enhancement layer, too, should be able to ignore the dynamic metadata of HDR10+, and behave in a similar manner to the way it does now, when it sits atop the HDR10 layer.

So, BDMV HDR (aka "HDR10") is and will remain the mandatory base layer for Ultra HD Blu-ray.

And it makes no sense to say that HDR10+ will replace HDR10 as mandatory base layer.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

... Thus, displays that support HDR10 but not HDR10+ will be able to display the content in HDR10 by simply ignoring the dynamic metadata. ...

A HDMI 2.0a compliant TV supporting HDR10 can't communicate with an external device transferring SMPTE ST 2094 Dynamic HDR across HDMI.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by DanBa

So, BDMV HDR (aka "HDR10") is and will remain the mandatory base layer for Ultra HD Blu-ray.

And it makes no sense to say that HDR10+ will replace HDR10 as mandatory base layer.

Sure, technically HDR10 will still be the "base" layer, because it would be embedded in the HDR10+ layer.

It still makes sense to say that HDR10+ would become the mandatory base layer, because it would mean that HDR10+ would be on every disc that contained HDR. It's more precise, and it would be a big deal.

[HeatEquation]

You can also think of it as an upgrade of the mandatory base layer, rather than an outright replacement.