HDR Discussion Thread

[Geoff D]

PS

I know that showing images of episode 3 doesn't debunk your claims, but it does present an opportunity to immediately answer a few things: if you and Adam use the exact same methodology to analyse ep 3 (same app, same TV) and it ends up as more flat, dull 200-nit HDR then something's definitely wrong somewhere with the actual app and not the content. For the sake of argument I'll get hold of the SDR version of ep 2 and do some comparisons of that.

[Fendergopher]

Thanks for elaborating on your mindset Vincent (if it's really you ). I personally did say from the beginning that your complaints regarding the grade were not unreasonable, only that I disagreed with some of the language used, i.e. "fake HDR". I'd even go so far as to agree that several of these Disney+ HDR grades seem to have been churned out quick and cheap just in time for the launch of the service to entice more customers.

I also agree on the point of less capable HDR displays not correctly rendering the artistic intent, though this has been an issue with HDR content from the beginning, being reliant on absolute luminance. I don't think I necessarily agree that only content mastered with higher peak brightness warrants an HDR grade to mitigate this however, it's ultimately a display issue rather than a content issue. At least that's how I see it.

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Vincent Teoh

Hi everyone

Vincent from HDTVTest here.

It feels like something's missing...

Originally Posted by Vincent Teoh

Hi everyone

Vincent from HDTVTest here. I'm a TV reviewer and professional calibrator.

Ah, better.

[Geoff D]

I couldn't help but read it in Vincent's voice as well

[chip75]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I couldn't help but read it in Vincent's voice as well

I did too. Nice to here from Vincent.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Vincent Teoh

Hi everyone
Vincent from HDTVTest here. Have been directed to this forum thread to address some criticisms which have become increasingly vicious.

Welcome to the forum.

I’m not familiar with The Mandalorian and have not spoken at all about it during this Holiday week, but you are off base with regards to your *fake HDR* labeling of the SW episodes as explained on this and another thread - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...=293133&page=9

P.S.
As opposed to one of your past assessments on YouTube, nobody I talked to noticed any yellow off-axis color shift with the HX310 as set up by SONY engineers here last March ->

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Last week at the clubhouse, the MITC had a bunch of reference monitors, including the HX310 set up for attendees to evaluate and compare…..

yes, there was a luminance drop with off-axis viewing, but no color shift identified....on the other hand, what was quite obvious was a magenta off-axis color shift with the BVM-X300 used as reference to all the LCDs.

[Vincent Teoh]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Welcome to the forum.

I’m not familiar with The Mandalorian and have not spoken at all about it during this Holiday week, but you are off base with regards to your *fake HDR* labeling of the SW episodes as explained on this and another thread - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...=293133&page=9

P.S.
As opposed to one of your past assessments on YouTube, nobody I talked to noticed any yellow off-axis color shift with the HX310 as set up by SONY engineers here last March ->

yes, there was a luminance drop with off-axis viewing, but no color shift identified....on the other hand, what was quite obvious was a magenta off-axis color shift with the BVM-X300 used as reference to all the LCDs.

Thanks for your welcome salvo containing a couple of criticisms.

Re "fake HDR", not once did I say it in my Disney+ videos. As explained in my opening post, my contention is whether such a conservative grade warrants an HDR output that forces worse picture quality on most TVs than corresponding SDR output.

Re the lack of off-axis colour shift on the Sony HX310, let's agree to disagree. I have managed to measure it, even capture it on camera on video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ee7...youtu.be&t=535

In fact, Panasonic engineers (who supplied the DMCL IPS tech to Sony) said other colourists have echoed my off-axis findings, hence their pursuit of wide-viewing angle tech with the Megacon prototype:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCjM...youtu.be&t=164

Warmest regards
Vincent

[Penton-Man]

ICYMI, more relatively conservative HDR à la Fincher - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...c#post17072338

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You'd hope so, so if Knives Out doesn't get an HDR pass then it'll be interesting to see if it gets a UHD disc release at all. As it's being finished in 4K (I think?) then that should give us 4K resolution at least.

see SD - https://www.studiodaily.com/2019/11/...685F7204456E6D

[Penton-Man]

Happy Thanksgiving folks
signing off to spend quality time with the relatives

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

see SD - https://www.studiodaily.com/2019/11/...685F7204456E6D

So not 4K SDR but 2K HDR, lol

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

ICYMI, more relatively conservative HDR à la Fincher - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...c#post17072338

That whole presentation is so fascinating, not just for HDR but all the curvature to emulate anamorphic lenses and whatnot. I knew that Fincher added loads of anamorphic-style streaking to Girl with the Dragon Tattoo (shot flat on RED as per usual) but creating that ana distortion at the edges is something else. Between that and the grain and gate weave that were added later (which Yedlin would appreciate I'm sure) I don't know why these people don't just shoot on 35mm anamorphic in the first place! But given the amount of specificity that people like Fincher and Yedlin push through their work then absolute control is key, so they'd rather adjust every tiny little aspect to their choosing rather than have x effect be baked in at source.

Weidt offers some very wise words regarding HDR though which cut right to the heart of the Disnee controversy: "Taste still applies".

[edit]

But then he also says that Fincher's plenty conscious of how it'll look on a consumer monitor - which is Vincent's underlying point in all this, however hamfistedly it was conveyed - and that Fincher doesn't "trust" that what he sees on the awesome mastering monitor is what everyone else in the world is gonna see. Although ironically enough Weidt mentions that the concern is that the content is now too saturated on a consumer set, not that the conservative HDR will now look too dim, that Weidt can fall into the trap of having it appear as though it's a bit "flat" on the tiny mastering monitor but when viewed on a consumer large-screen OLED it will look livelier, as intended. He then notes that Fincher's HDR approach "travels well" regardless.

That's something that's also broached in this excellent ICG piece on Joker with DP Lawrence Sher http://www.icgmagazine.com/web/wild-card/, that when they view a movie of theirs on streaming or on Blu it now looks too "garish" because of the limited colour space. Sher also addresses the wider issue of creative intent with all these different deliverables, that no one version should necessarly be enhanced over the other but that it should be as true to the original intent as possible. And if that means it's not blasting out with nits or doesn't have endless reams of information in the highlights then, well...

[LordoftheRings]

Penton, Thanksgiving is tomorrow...Happy Thanksgiving!

Today is HDRgiving.

[Geoff D]

Did some comparisons of Mando episode 2, of the separate SDR and HDR10 streams playing on the OPPO 203, not playing via any app. Usual caveats apply re: the inherent inaccuracy of taking photos of a screen, particularly the darkening of shadow areas and increased vignetting due to the camera's exposure, but hopefully you get the idea.


http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DGWZWNNX

1) more definition in the sky and sun, not eye-meltingly bright but a lovely subtle change 2) more definition on the sparks 3) sparks again, and look at how the SDR is massively clipping the surrounding areas


http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/JE0C1NNU

1) This mightn't seem like much but the speculars on his helmet are more intense, no problems with major differences in average brightness either 2) Same again, look at his shiny helmet and how the specular just becomes a flat blob of light in SDR, as it does elsewhere on his costume, the SDR lacks depth as a result. More colour in the HDR sky too 3) One of the jawas getting nuked, heh


http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/JE0CCNNU

1) Way more more definition in sky in HDR, not just in the one shot but this whole scene with the Sandcrawler, and HDR isn't that dark, it's just the exposure 2) Background is heavily whited out in SDR, more definition and intensity to the sun behind him in HDR, again, not as dark as it appears 3) Same, sky goes from being almost totally whited out to having more intensity and a definable light source


http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/JE0CMNNU

1) Mando giving one of the jawas a good roasting, fire clips away in SDR 2) The sparks are flying, there's not just more definition in the white 'core' in HDR but the actual sparks themselves have more colour and you get a truer sense of how their luminance varies in intensity, it's so much more realistic while in SDR they're duller and flatter, with much similar luminance to each other

[Scottishguy]

Vincent vs Geoff !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKdJ...ature=youtu.be

Seriously, here's my take on your little HDR mess as a less technologically minded viewer of your content Vincent. The guy who takes a back seat, and just watches the heavyweights slug it out most of the time.

I don't think anyone is questioning your experience, or professionalism in general. It's more I believe how you titled the videos came across as being to definitive. That doesn't mix well with the present HDR climate being a hot mess of conjecture in the enthusiast community. When I first saw the title of those videos, I knew a storm of hostile criticism was coming your way.

There for, perhaps, your issue is one of not understanding the current feeling and mindsets towards HDR among enthusiasts. So if indeed this is the case, I strongly recommend striking up a bit of back and forth with Geoff via PM or something as way of remedying this.

The man is a gristled veteran of AV forums. He'll get you in the loop.

But don't worry, there is more love than hate out there for you. Your mellifluous Mancunian, Mandarin accent brings joy to our ears.

[Geoff D]

No need for a fight, but there's a serious disconnect here between what he (and evilboris) are seeing and what I'm seeing and it'd be great to get to the bottom of it.

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

No need for a fight, but there's a serious disconnect here between what he (and evilboris) are seeing and what I'm seeing and it'd be great to get to the bottom of it.

The fight was a joke

I don't know how clued up on Wrestling you are. But a hypothetical match up such as that would be like Rock Austin WM 17

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Scottishguy

The fight was a joke

I don't know how clued up on Wrestling you are. But a hypothetical match up such as that would be like Rock Austin WM 17

I know it was a joke, you think me and him are gonna get it on like Logan Paul and KSI?

As for wrasslin', no love for Rock vs Hogan at WrestleMania 18? Terrible match in terms of wrestling, natch, but the crowd was absolutely electric and they made it what it was.

PS

It's "grizzled veteran", not "gristled", though I've got plenty of that too.

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I know it was a joke, you think me and him are gonna get it on like Logan Paul and KSI?

As for wrasslin', no love for Rock vs Hogan at WrestleMania 18? Terrible match in terms of wrestling, natch, but the crowd was absolutely electric and they made it what it was.

PS

It's "grizzled veteran", not "gristled", though I've got plenty of that too.

Lol that was because you put Shirley instead of surely in your original reply to Vincent. Airplane reference?

Don't even start me on the KSI Logan Paul boxing nonsense.

Definitely WM17. Just one.....more fight.....about an HDR grade....

[multiformous]

The HDTV Test analysis has now been written up in Ars Technica and Engadget. Disney responded to Engadget's request for comment:

The company disputes that The Mandalorian does not reach more than 200 nits of brightness, saying it's "available in true HDR" on Disney+.