The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy (Extended Edition) (2001-2003)

[kidglov3s]

Originally Posted by GaragePoet

always agreed on the over-emphasis of the need for pro-calibration. unless you have a dedicated home theater worth thousands of dollars w/ a light-controlled environment, it's just a waste. any light changes that occur throughout the day are going to affect your pro-calibration.

granted, if you're using programmed settings on your TV, you could take a few mins. to make things a whole lot better. i've used a calibration disc to try to get the settings to where i like them. but people here often act like unless you spend hundreds of dollars having your screen professionally calibrated, you can't tell the color blue from the color orange, etc. it's snobbery at its absolute worst...

I see it as a matter of degrees.

Like people who have sharpness all the way up, on Showcase mode with the artificial Samsung modified framerate thing are on the "I don't give ****" end, 0 on a 100 point scale.

People who use some kind of consumer calibration metrics (or just common sense, sharpness to 0, etc) are at like 99.8.

And then people who pay $400 to have someone doodle around with their shit are at 99.9 AND WANT YOU TO KNOW IT!

That .1 is all the difference between being an ignorant fool in the dunce corner to some, lol.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

For ultimate accuracy to the source - which does exist as a set of industry-mandated standards to which these discs are mastered to, believe it or not - then pro-calibration is essential because things like gamma, greyscale and colour temperature cannot be set by eye, and even small variations in these across the 0-100% luminance range can create drastically different results from display to display, even between the exact same model of TV.

Exactly. More people need to understand this.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by GaragePoet

always agreed on the over-emphasis of the need for pro-calibration. unless you have a dedicated home theater worth thousands of dollars w/ a light-controlled environment, it's just a waste. any light changes that occur throughout the day are going to affect your pro-calibration.

granted, if you're using programmed settings on your TV, you could take a few mins. to make things a whole lot better. i've used a calibration disc to try to get the settings to where i like them. but people here often act like unless you spend hundreds of dollars having your screen professionally calibrated, you can't tell the color blue from the color orange, etc. it's snobbery at its absolute worst...

No, that's just a copout.

You've got many, many people who have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on hundreds of discs; not to mention the money they have spent on players, audio systems, and displays; yet they won't spend a few hundred or so dollars to actually watch these discs up to standard. And yes, it does make a significant difference even on an LED.

Yet, we have people who have never seen a calibrated display imply it doesn't matter much. lol

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

It's all about degrees, my man. Does it offer some perceivable difference to some people? Sure. Is it really needed? Nope. Does it mean people can't have opinions on visuals without a pro-calibration? Far from it. You're someone who says he can see minor compression differences in motion, so sure, it probably matters to you. You're not most people though.

Edit: Anyway, I more meant over-emphasis rather than useless, as GaragePoet wisely rephrased. The idea that you can't evaluate how bad the green tint is without a calibrated display is nonsense.

Have you seen the difference between a professionally calibrated display before and after? The funny thing is, people are talking out of their *** because they have NOT seen the difference. So, no, they cannot properly judge the color of this disc or any disc because these discs are calibrated to a STANDARD. I cannot believe how few people understand this. I have had a number of displays pro calibrated over the years including CRTs, LCoS, and plasmas. I have seen the difference and know a disc really cannot be judged if the display is not at rec 709 especially when you're hitting dEs at 5 or 6+ which is the case with many displays non calibrated. The colors change dramatically including greyscale and color gamut. Color neutrality does not exist there.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

For ultimate accuracy to the source - which does exist as a set of industry-mandated standards to which these discs are mastered to, believe it or not - then pro-calibration is essential because things like gamma, greyscale and colour temperature cannot be set by eye, and even small variations in these across the 0-100% luminance range can create drastically different results from display to display, even between the exact same model of TV.

Does everyone need such accuracy? No, because their lives function perfectly well without it (say it ain't so! ) and it's simply not that big of a deal to them. Put in disc, press play. It's their TV, they'll set it how they want it and that's cool, it's their dime. But the precision of all these 1's and 0's - unlike the wobbly analogue days - has allowed home cinema tech to get that much closer to perfection and as someone who despised how crappy VHS was I'm like a kid in a candy store with all this Blu-ray malarkey.

Still, as I recently said in another post, my personal values and that of the wider user base of this forum seem to be skewing further apart by the day. Maybe I should just retreat to the HTF and be done with it, or create my own nitpicker's forum along the lines of databass, complete with fancy graphs and shit!

I completely agree with you.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in ...


Called you out on a statement you made, flat and categorical.


See? I knew that whatever I said, you'd turn it into what you wanted to hear, as you've done throughout this conversation. Where did I answer your question? And in particular, where did I say I hadn't seen this on a calibrated display?

I've agreed with you specifically all along about the value of calibration. I specifically disagree with you that alleged lack of calibration is what caused this to be an issue. There's no evidence that is true, and significant evidence to the contrary. Professionals as well as home-watchers all over the world have commented on it. As I said at the start, if you can't see it, then fair enough.

You called me out, then I schooled you on why you are wrong and evidently hit a real button. But, keep on watching this disc on your non calibrated display with non-neutral colors making the so-called green tint issue into something much, much larger than it really is. I'll continue to enjoy the disc in the meantime.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by GaragePoet

always agreed on the over-emphasis of the need for pro-calibration. unless you have a dedicated home theater worth thousands of dollars w/ a light-controlled environment, it's just a waste. any light changes that occur throughout the day are going to affect your pro-calibration.

granted, if you're using programmed settings on your TV, you could take a few mins. to make things a whole lot better. i've used a calibration disc to try to get the settings to where i like them. but people here often act like unless you spend hundreds of dollars having your screen professionally calibrated, you can't tell the color blue from the color orange, etc. it's snobbery at its absolute worst...

Well, I did pay £3.3K (over $5K) for my TV and I do indeed watch in a light controlled room, so there's that.

For the record, I've never said that people can't tell the colour blue from the colour orange without a genuine calibration, but I do honestly believe that those unseen variances in performance (beyond simple adjustments to brightness, contrast, colour etc) can skew how a disc is represented on a display, and not just colour.

I remember the big brouhaha about Godzilla's 'crushed blacks' but when I viewed it on my TV I thought it looked amazing, with some of the most testing near-black content I've ever seen on Blu-ray. If your TV's gamma is too high then that content will be gone, crushed down into sheer blackness, and IMO that was a big part of people's problems with that disc. But because you can't measure gamma across the luminance scale by eye (there may be a global gamma adjustment in the TV menu but you can't gauge from that how it's affecting black at 0%, 10%, 20% and so on) it's not something that can be fine tuned with a test disc, so the crush goes on.

To that end I wouldn't say that getting the basics right gets you to within 99.8% of that industry-defined accuracy, you're maybe 60% there which would be decent odds for many things in life, admittedly. If I'd gotten that mark when I did my degree I'd have been over the ****ing moon, but then as now there will be people striving for those extra percentage points and I don't begrudge them for wanting to get them while I felt like the dunce in the corner (though I did spend more time in the snooker hall than the lecture hall, so that explains it). Now that I'm in a loftier position with all this calibrated TV shenanigans it may indeed seem like I'm lording it over people but that's really not my intention, I'm just calling it how I sees it.

Dammit, and I said I wasn't gonna do a long-winded post.

[jarrod_inf]

I guess I'll just sell all my discs, burn all my non calibrated devices, and stab my eyes out.....

[Show spoiler]

[GaragePoet]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Well, I did pay £3.3K (over $5K) for my TV and I do indeed watch in a light controlled room, so there's that.

i totally agree here. if i had a $5K TV or projector in a light-controlled environment, i'd gladly spring to have it calibrated. but most people watch TV in their living rooms, etc. where even w/ curtains drawn, the light is going to change significantly throughout the day, causing glare on the screen, etc. i'm saying it's a waste under those conditions because the light is also going to have a major impact on the colors & black levels.

[cb1]

Originally Posted by Doctor Jack

It's people basically pushing their chest out and saying my male reproductive organ is Better Calibrated than yours. It's all ridiculous.

LOL fixed it for you!

[MacEachaidh]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

You called me out, then I schooled you on why you are wrong and evidently hit a real button. But, keep on watching this disc on your non calibrated display with non-neutral colors making the so-called green tint issue into something much, much larger than it really is. I'll continue to enjoy the disc in the meantime.

If that's what you think happened, then clearly your claims to be "observant" (never mind the "very, very") are utter tosh.

As we say in my country, "Get your hand off it, Darryl."

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Wow... has this thread ever morphed into a completely different monster! I know that it all stems from the material meant to be the thread topic, but wow! Talk about a massive derailment!!!

Aren't there other threads appropriately dedicated to this type of heated discussion? Perhaps if a MOD is reading this we can get a bit of reorganization to occur???

[Falaskan]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Wow... has this thread ever morphed into a completely different monster! I know that it all stems from the material meant to be the thread topic, but wow! Talk about a massive derailment!!!

Aren't there other threads appropriately dedicated to this type of heated discussion? Perhaps if a MOD is reading this we can get a bit of reorganization to occur???

Or just change the topic, and don't hit the back button.

For example, I don't want to see a 3D conversion of this, unless it's done well, ala Titanic. The Hobbit in 3D is underwhelimg.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Have you seen the difference between a professionally calibrated display before and after? The funny thing is, people are talking out of their *** because they have NOT seen the difference.

I did a pro calibration on my Toshiba years ago. My new TV looks pretty much identical to it out of the box, using the "calibrated" settings. I'm glad you guys see a difference worth paying for, by my opinion is still that on a newer set the benefits are slight. The manufacturers have come a realllllly long way in the last 5 years. You can disagree with it all day, that's cool, but my opinion stays the same.

It might be more necessary on a plasma or projection system, I grant you. I wouldn't know.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Still, as I recently said in another post, my personal values and that of the wider user base of this forum seem to be skewing further apart by the day. Maybe I should just retreat to the HTF and be done with it, or create my own nitpicker's forum along the lines of databass, complete with fancy graphs and shit!

Don't lump anyone who doesn't see much value in pro calibration in with people who couldn't care less about image fidelity at all. I lean more toward your side of things in video discussion than I do the more casual among us. I hope you stick around, because us videophiles need to stick together and HTF is super slow now-a-days.

[m3racer123]

Originally Posted by Falaskan

For example, I don't want to see a 3D conversion of this, unless it's done well, ala Titanic. The Hobbit in 3D is underwhelimg.

If they were to do a 3D conversion of LOTR, they would have to do a theatrical release as well (like Titanic), otherwise the cost would outweigh the disc sales.

[Nada]

Originally Posted by Falaskan

The Hobbit in 3D is underwhelimg.

I disagree. I thought the sense of depth into the screen was fantastic and I don't even like 3D much at all. When it's clearly composed, shot, and edited for 3D like Jackson, Cameron, and Anderson do, it's quite something.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

If that's what you think happened, then clearly your claims to be "observant" (never mind the "very, very") are utter tosh.

As we say in my country, "Get your hand off it, Darryl."

Oh my, that's good one. It's evident what happened which is why you are now resorting to personal attacks. The only thing "tosh" are your last several posts.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I did a pro calibration on my Toshiba years ago. My new TV looks pretty much identical to it out of the box, using the "calibrated" settings. I'm glad you guys see a difference worth paying for, by my opinion is still that on a newer set the benefits are slight. The manufacturers have come a realllllly long way in the last 5 years. You can disagree with it all day, that's cool, but my opinion stays the same.

It might be more necessary on a plasma or projection system, I grant you. I wouldn't know.

And that is a fair enough point. One may not notice it. But as I mentioned before, displays do drift over time - all of them do. Even if (and that is a big if) the display is somewhat close out of the box, it will change and there are elements which can/should be customized for the user (such as gamma, contrast which affects greyscale, etc.). These things interact with one another.

But, may I ask...was the calibrator one of the top traveling ones around the country?

Here is why I ask.

My first calibration was done to my 57" Sony CRT RPTV display about 10 years back and I hired a "local" ISF certified guy. I knew nothing about calibration and went to the ISF site and figured so long as the guy is certified, I can expect a great job, right? Wrong.

My image looked very similar after he was done and I knew something just was not right having talked to other people who were knowledgable on one of the forums.

I ended up contacting someone who does calibration full-time, traveling across the country with a top notch reputation. I'll go ahead and give him a plug - his name is Chad Billheimer. He spent almost 10 hours on my Sony and let me tell you - it looked like a completely different display after. My jaw dropped. Grant you, this was a CRT RPTV and those have the most potential for improvement because there are so many mechanical components to consider from convergence, to manual and electro focus, to reducing overscan, etc.

But, the point being...it really does matter who the person is as well as the type of equipment being used even on digital displays. The initial calibrator was using sub par equipment that was skewing the results, but he also didn't have the experience and knowledge Chad had.

This is why I tell people to always hire one of the top travelers - as there are a number of them (Kevin Miller, D-Nice, Jeff Meier, etc.) instead of someone local or worst yet - someone from Best Buy/Magnolia...run, don't walk from those guys! The traveling guys have a real passion for this stuff and will spend the amount of time required to get the display optimal. They have years of experience and knowledge doing this stuff full-time. They are not on a time clock (like Best Buy) and they are using top notch equipment which also needs to be periodically tuned itself.

[Gold Ranger]

Pro-Cal is fine and all IF:
1 - you have a really huge set!
2 - you have a really expensive set

If one don't have either of those, there isn't a reason to keep telling people, and in multiple threads, that a Pro-Cal is the way to go.


(This is just a general statement, not aimed at anyone in particular)

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

Pro-Cal is fine and all IF:
1 - you have a really huge set!
2 - you have a really expensive set

If one don't have either of those, there isn't a reason to keep telling people, and in multiple threads, that a Pro-Cal is the way to go.


(This is just a general statement, not aimed at anyone in particular)

I don't think size has much to do with it and mid range sets will benefit. If the display has a CMS, absolutely. But even greyscale alone makes a notable difference especially if you want whites, greys, and blacks to actually look neutral and colors to look more pure.

Of course, if we're talking a bottom barrel type of display that costs almost as much as the calibration, then I would say it doesn't make sense.