The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy (Extended Edition) (2001-2003)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by atexp80

It's funny, because these special features were on the DVD releases way back when and they were entirely devoted to the digital grading of FOTR and the specific choices they made:

LOTR Digital Color Grading Part 1 of 2 - YouTube

LOTR Digital Color Grading Part 2 of 2 - YouTube

What they make very clear is how much time was spent on specific decisions and choices (let's only alter a face, Hobbiton should be warm, let's spotlight certain action to draw attention to it) and how at odds it is with what was put on disc. It may have been a conscious decision, but it still doesn't change the fact that unlike the previous colour grading which was specific and targeted what was done with the new grading included a near blanket application and/or push towards the tint we see on disc. 4:10 onwards in the second video is particularly revealing considering it makes it very clear the DoP was in the room and involved in those decisions when the original grading occurred and so any changes are at odds with what the DoP original wanted which, by the comments Jackson makes directly after, he agreed with.

All fair points atex, but at one point (in one of the many Appendices) Jackson says that he doesn't finish his films, they're taken away from him. Given how he's almost as much of a ditherer as Lucas is when it comes to all the choices that these digital toys offer up, it's not beyond the realms that they re-graded FOTR completely when they laid down the other 30% of the DI during post on ROTK.

After all, they weren't entirely happy with the quality of the DI process in 2001 which is why FOTR wasn't fully output to digital back then. By the time they got around to post on ROTK they felt they'd cracked it, and it's possible that the 30% of FOTR that they'd newly graded didn't match up in terms of overall quality (sharpness, grain etc) to the 70% they'd done two years before - so they redid the whole thing, colour included. And these changes wouldn't have shown up on the FOTR EE DVD, inclusive of its extra features, because that was done before the full DI for FOTR was completed.

None of this excuses the new choices that were made, nor does it govern whether people should like them or not, but I honestly do believe that it's what the filmmakers wanted at that point in time, given the "films are never finished, only abandoned" (© George Lucas) notion that's also espoused by Jackson.

[gettodamoofies]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

All fair points atex, but at one point (in one of the many Appendices) Jackson says that he doesn't finish his films, they're taken away from him. Given how he's almost as much of a ditherer as Lucas is when it comes to all the choices that these digital toys offer up, it's not beyond the realms that they re-graded FOTR completely when they laid down the other 30% of the DI during post on ROTK.

After all, they weren't entirely happy with the quality of the DI process in 2001 which is why FOTR wasn't fully output to digital back then. By the time they got around to post on ROTK they felt they'd cracked it, and it's possible that the 30% of FOTR that they'd newly graded didn't match up in terms of overall quality (sharpness, grain etc) to the 70% they'd done two years before - so they redid the whole thing, colour included. And these changes wouldn't have shown up on the FOTR EE DVD, inclusive of its extra features, because that was done before the full DI for FOTR was completed.

None of this excuses the new choices that were made, nor does it govern whether people should like them or not, but I honestly do believe that it's what the filmmakers wanted at that point in time, given the "films are never finished, only abandoned" (© George Lucas) notion that's also espoused by Jackson.

I agree 100%. I just dislike the approach that some take where it's the old "this is how it was always supposed to look" line. I even get that some of the work wasn't complete and that's why they went back to finish it after the fact. That just doesn't explain the wholesale changes made to the rest of the film where there had clearly been a look that was carefully designed and constructed.

What's disappointing to me is that everything is bathed in cool tones which is precisely what they didn't go for originally. They wanted places like Hobbiton and Rivendell to have warmer tones than places like Moria. It removes some of the "performance" that Jackson wanted and discussed at the end of the last video I posted - it's more consistent but each location loses some of their distinctive character.

[StingingVelvet]

Jackson and Walsh go on and on about changes they could make to Lord of the Rings someday in one of the Hobbit commentaries. He's definitely got Lucas style tendencies, though he also says clearly the original versions would be available as well, meaning he is not the enemy like Lucas is. Most of the complaints about Lucas' changes to Star Wars miss the point: it's the ABSENCE of the original versions restored that bothers people.

[BaerGriggs]

[TheHutt]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Jackson and Walsh go on and on about changes they could make to Lord of the Rings someday in one of the Hobbit commentaries.

Boyens, not Walsh. And PJ is rather reluctant about it in the commentaries.

[Pieter V]

Originally Posted by Adam_WM

I think I only mentioned it in the Hobbit thread, but I am going to be interviewing Michael Pellerin (who directed all the Appendices) on my podcast this Tuesday. Does anyone have any questions that you'd like me to ask him?

Question one:

If there is an UHD Blu-ray release of King Kong (2005) in the future, can he please make sure, it now comes with all his extras and in HD quality? The current Blu-ray release only has one commentary. The rest is all missing compared to the DVD release.

Question two: (similar)

If there is an UHD Blu-ray release of Lord of the Rings in future, can he please make sure his footage will be finally in HD?

The current Blu-ray Extended Edition release, kept all extras in SD quality.

Such a same for LotR fans and fans of extras. And now with The Hobbit it falls out of the tone, which is in HD.

Question three: Did he shoot the LotR: The Appendices on HD cameras or on film?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Jackson and Walsh go on and on about changes they could make to Lord of the Rings someday in one of the Hobbit commentaries. He's definitely got Lucas style tendencies, though he also says clearly the original versions would be available as well, meaning he is not the enemy like Lucas is. Most of the complaints about Lucas' changes to Star Wars miss the point: it's the ABSENCE of the original versions restored that bothers people.

It's not just the Hobbit commentaries, I remembered him saying various things like that in the LOTR commentaries too. I've been revisiting them over these last few days and he says (without irony) that he'd like to change the Gollum CG in FOTR. He's also less than complimentary about the CG Wargs in Two Towers and makes a point of calling our attention to how much better the CG is in the ROTK commentary when Gothmog gets off his Warg steed. He's a bit more jokey about changing anything in the ROTK commentary though, him and Phil and Fran have a running joke about what they'll put in for the '25th Anniversary Edition'.

[Lionel Horsepackage]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Jackson and Walsh go on and on about changes they could make to Lord of the Rings someday in one of the Hobbit commentaries. He's definitely got Lucas style tendencies, though he also says clearly the original versions would be available as well, meaning he is not the enemy like Lucas is. Most of the complaints about Lucas' changes to Star Wars miss the point: it's the ABSENCE of the original versions restored that bothers people.

Indeed, and even J.R.R. Tolkien himself indulged in some Lucas-style Soviet revisionism with the first edition of The Hobbit being pulled and substantially rewritten in places to better reflect the "new" direction Tolkien was taking Middle-earth with all the story-retcons he introduced with The Lord of the Rings decades after the fact (such as massive changes made to the "Riddles in the Dark" sequence and Gollum's character, as well as completely altering the importance of the Ring in the 1937 novel).

Now that I think about it, what Tolkien did was, in some respects, far more egregious than anything Lucas has done, because while both creators pulled the "earlier" versions of their respective works from distribution, the only changes that Lucas made were cosmetic ones at worst, as opposed rewriting or reshooting entire chunks of his original film to accommodate changes made to the universe years later on a fundamental story-level (at most, we see Han shooting first, but that changes absolutely nothing in the bigger-picture SW universe-sense).

And now that I think about it some more, Lucas did actually allow the re-release of the "original" Original Trilogy in 2005 on DVD, albeit in non-anamorphic form. And yet he gets all the nerd-hate, while Tolkien's creative reputation is as solid now as it ever was, despite he and Lucas sharing the same room at this particular inn.

[Geoff D]

Eh, Lucas' changes were more than merely "cosmetic" at times, but the Lucas nerd-rage is already at full flow in the SW thread so I will not utter his name any more here.

But yeah, Tolkien retconned The Hobbit something fierce. I've started reading LOTR again and it's amusing how much back-peddling Tolkien does, though he doesn't actually remove the original story from canon. Yes, the book itself was changed but the story as first told to Gandalf by Bilbo (that he was given the Ring by Gollum) becomes part of the tale, that Bilbo actually lied to Gandalf about what happened because of the influence that the Ring was already imparting on him. So at least Tolkien didn't wipe it from history, it became part of the story.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by Lionel Horsepackage

Indeed, and even J.R.R. Tolkien himself indulged in some Lucas-style Soviet revisionism with the first edition of The Hobbit being pulled and substantially rewritten in places to better reflect the "new" direction Tolkien was taking Middle-earth with all the story-retcons he introduced with The Lord of the Rings decades after the fact (such as massive changes made to the "Riddles in the Dark" sequence and Gollum's character, as well as completely altering the importance of the Ring in the 1937 novel).

Now that I think about it, what Tolkien did was, in some respects, far more egregious than anything Lucas has done, because while both creators pulled the "earlier" versions of their respective works from distribution, the only changes that Lucas made were cosmetic ones at worst, as opposed rewriting or reshooting entire chunks of his original film to accommodate changes made to the universe years later on a fundamental story-level (at most, we see Han shooting first, but that changes absolutely nothing in the bigger-picture SW universe-sense).

And now that I think about it some more, Lucas did actually allow the re-release of the "original" Original Trilogy in 2005 on DVD, albeit in non-anamorphic form. And yet he gets all the nerd-hate, while Tolkien's creative reputation is as solid now as it ever was, despite he and Lucas sharing the same room at this particular inn.

I think equel to or even greater than that is Vader yelling "No. NoOOOO" twice at the end of Return of the Jedi.
THAT changes the scene drastically!
It goes from being, a "OMG, what is going to happen" scene to a " oh, well, obviously he's not all bad and will interfere with killing Luke" scene!

[Lionel Horsepackage]

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

I think equel to or even greater than that is Vader yelling "No. NoOOOO" twice at the end of Return of the Jedi.
THAT changes the scene drastically!
It goes from being, a "OMG, what is going to happen" scene to a " oh, well, obviously he's not all bad and will interfere with killing Luke" scene!

Scale-wise, it still doesn't even remotely compare to what Tolkien did to The Hobbit, completely altering the fundamental story-DNA of his fictional universe, versus Vader yelling one single word in one single scene. At most, that moment in Jedi affects Vader's character only, while Tolkien rewrote a chunk of Middle-earth's own cosmic backstory from the first edition of The Hobbit as a retcon in later printings to fit his "new" direction in The Lord of the Rings decades after the fact.

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

I think equel to or even greater than that is Vader yelling "No. NoOOOO" twice at the end of Return of the Jedi.
THAT changes the scene drastically!
It goes from being, a "OMG, what is going to happen" scene to a " oh, well, obviously he's not all bad and will interfere with killing Luke" scene!

Not to mention it makes Palpatine look like a bit of an idiot. Now Vader makes his feelings on what's happening known loud and clear, but Palpatine apparently doesn't hear him. I suppose either his hearing isn't what it used to be, or perhaps he's so into what he's doing that he just focuses on the crackling of the force lightning and Luke's screams and doesn't pick up on Vader's "no".

[steel_breeze]

Don't do it… don't spin this off into another STAR WARS complaint thread. There are FOUR other threads for that -- which is already three too many. :-)

[m3racer123]

Originally Posted by Pieter V

Question one:

If there is an UHD Blu-ray release of King Kong (2005) in the future, can he please make sure, it now comes with all his extras and in HD quality? The current Blu-ray release only has one commentary. The rest is all missing compared to the DVD release.

Question two: (similar)

If there is an UHD Blu-ray release of Lord of the Rings in future, can he please make sure his footage will be finally in HD?

The current Blu-ray Extended Edition release, kept all extras in SD quality.

Such a same for LotR fans and fans of extras. And now with The Hobbit it falls out of the tone, which is in HD.

Question three: Did he shoot the LotR: The Appendices on HD cameras or on film?

Don't quote me on this - I could very well be wrong - but I think all the extras for both LOTR and King Kong were shot on standard definition video cameras. For most films in general, shooting behind-the-scenes footage in HD started around 2006-7. There will be exceptions, of course.

[Pieter V]

Originally Posted by m3racer123

Don't quote me on this - I could very well be wrong - but I think all the extras for both LOTR and King Kong were shot on standard definition video cameras. For most films in general, shooting behind-the-scenes footage in HD started around 2006-7. There will be exceptions, of course.

The interviews for Band of Brothers (2001) were recorded with Sony HD cameras. So you never know.

[Adam_WM]

Originally Posted by m3racer123

Don't quote me on this - I could very well be wrong - but I think all the extras for both LOTR and King Kong were shot on standard definition video cameras. For most films in general, shooting behind-the-scenes footage in HD started around 2006-7. There will be exceptions, of course.

I'm pretty sure as well, but I will ask him anyway. I feel like if there was better footage, they would have used it in the Hobbit docs when they showed the (terrible looking) LOTR behind the scenes footage.

Originally Posted by Pieter V

The interviews for Band of Brothers (2001) were recorded with Sony HD cameras. So you never know.

Most of that wasn't recorded outdoors in the late 90s.

[TheHutt]

Originally Posted by m3racer123

Don't quote me on this - I could very well be wrong - but I think all the extras for both LOTR and King Kong were shot on standard definition video cameras. For most films in general, shooting behind-the-scenes footage in HD started around 2006-7. There will be exceptions, of course.

PS: the behind the scenes footage on LOTR was actually shot by Costa Botes.

[Adam_WM]

Just finished my interview with Michael Pellerin. I'll have a link for you guys soon, but he told me some INCREDIBLE stuff.

[TheHutt]

Looking forward to it!

[Adam_WM]

Here you go guys, I hope you enjoy it. More than an hour with Michael Pellerin talking Lord of the Rings and Hobbit Appendices, 3D, splitting the movies into 3, what extras were held back for future releases, Peter Jackson "winging it" and more!

http://geekleagueofamerica.com/2015/...hael-pellerin/

EDIT: Here is the text highlights version of the article UPDATED with comments from Michael about the Fellowship EE Blu-rays.
http://geekleagueofamerica.com/2015/12/09/21324/

He said:

When The Lord of the Rings was prepared for Blu-Ray, the work was done to the existing HD masters, created when the films came out in 2001, 2002 and 2003. As you know, during that time period, HD was not a consumer format yet, and was only a protection format for archiving the films.

When it came time to master the films for Blu-Ray (in 2008 and 2010 for the theatrical editions and extended editions, respectively), the decision was made to clean up the existing HD masters, instead of doing a complete HD remaster from scratch from the original film and digital elements. So the latitude of what could be done to the picture was not as dynamic as what can be achieved in a complete remaster from original elements. But the Blu-Rays were achieved to the best quality possible, given their source material.

This remaster of the existing HD masters was personally reviewed and approved by the films colourist, Peter Doyle and director of photography, Andrew Lesnie. So what the public saw on the BDs was blessed by the two people most hands-on responsible for the cinematographic image of the original films.

WHV is very considerate and inclusive of collaborating with filmmakers on their mastering process and approving the final masters. They even consulted me on the image quality of the Appendices docs initially when we contemplated up-rezzing them to HD or not, and approving all of the final discs and image quality of The Hobbit Appendices.

After the Blu-Rays came out, Wingnut films and Peter Jackson were made aware of the concerns about the films having to much cyan in the color timing of some of the sequences.

I imagine, if WHV is going to remaster the films for 4K (if they haven’t done so already) they will have no choice but to go back to original elements to do a proper restoration for the higher resolution format. And I am sure if this comes to pass, Wingnut and Peter Jackson will be given the opportunity to review the new masters, so the public will see exactly what was intended in terms of the image and audio of the films.