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Old 02-01-2020, 09:25 AM   #881
RockyIII RockyIII is offline
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Speaking of natural looking, that first opening sequence of the train station looked off the charts realistic!
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Old 02-01-2020, 02:09 PM   #882
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xellos2099alpha View Post
Is it me or Gemini man 4k 60 fps is more colorful/ vibrant than other movie in 4k? I show it to my friend the other day he said it look colorful and amazing.
I switched to the Vudu 4k presentation halfway through and thought the HDR and color looked more subdued even there. The 60fps disc is a barn burner for vivid color, yes. Maybe the difference was a total placebo, but it definitely stands out on the disc.
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Old 02-01-2020, 02:35 PM   #883
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Gemini Man (2019) Dolby Vision review. HDR metadata: P3 colour primaries. 1000/0.0010 nit max/min mastering display level. Max Content Light Level 5180 nits. Max Frame Average Light Level 1577 nits.

Gonna talk about the movie first, if you want to get to all the techy shit then scroll down like 5 paragraphs.

Let's just get this out of the way: I love HFR and I don't care who knows it. Now, I don't want to see most 24p films retrofitted into HFR any more than I would stick my hand in a blender and flip the switch, but holy shitballs HFR works like gangbusters on new stuff for me. It's like you're watching it live rather than refracted through whatever inherently 'unreal' visual stylisations the filmmakers have opted for (with a couple of exceptions, which I'll get to later). Different strokes and all that, there's a million and one creative decisions that can be made when shooting a movie and as long as it's germane to the story that's being told then I'm happy with whatever. And with Gemini Man there's a crazy sense of immersion and immediacy that the HFR brings to it, at once I just 'synced' with it (rewatching Billy Lynn's again recently was a big help in that respect) and simply enjoyed the film from there on out.

Maybe it's just me, that I actually dig HFR rather than having some kind of pathological hatred of it, but I thought the action scenes looked terrific in terms of their actual appearance in 60p HFR. People talk of the fight scenes looking horribly staged, that the motorcycle chase looks like it's going about 5mph, that the actors themselves seem like they're doing amateur dramatics but I got NONE of that when watching it. Seriously. I'm not saying other people can't feel that way but I'm the exact opposite.

The combat scenes are breathlessly swift (though encumbered by the usual western techniques of editing the crap out of them, not even HFR can do anything about that), the Colombia chase had me gripping the armrests on my chair as they zip through the streets and even the acting I thought was enhanced by the HFR, not lessened. Clive Owen's terrible in it, sure, but he's been phoning it in for years while everyone else does rather well IMO. There's a moment on Jack's boat when he hears something outside and his happy expression leaves his face and he goes for his gun, the last thing to sag on his mush is the area just under his eyes and it's wonderful to see that level of control that an actor has over their instrument, on the 24p BD it happens all too subtly to appreciate.

HFR brings up all those little tics and as Ang Lee is so obsessed with the human face (dude loves them close-ups, not just here but in many of his movies) it's not surprising that he hearts HFR so much. I am surprised that we got several little bursts of slow motion in the movie though, as IIRC Ang or someone else on the Billy Lynn's production noted that slow motion was designed so we could see things that 24p wouldn't otherwise capture, so they rhetorically asked 'what use does it have in HFR?'. Now we know: it can be used stylistically to remind us that we are still watching a movie.

The VFX on Junior is quite simply remarkable. Not perfect, as digital artists still seem to be engaged in a perennial struggle to animate the area around the mouth without it looking too rubbery, but there are plenty of moments where he looks nothing less than 100% photo real and in 4K HFR (and HDR) he damn well needs to! When Henry shines the light on him in the catacombs, oh mai. Admittedly the face replacement on the stunties looks rubbish but it rarely works well at 24p never mind in HFR so I can let that go. The end sequence does look bad (as mused upon upthread it was probably a rush job for a reshoot) but other than that Junior is a gobsmackingly good piece of VFX wizardry, driven as much by the performance as the pixels, and as a result I truly believe in Junior as a character which is probably why I also enjoyed the movie so much. Of course it's regulation Hollywood bollocks but, as Sweetie will tell you, I love pimping trash and I makes no apologies for it. More MEW in movies is also very high on my list of priorities, it gets an extra star just for her kicking some ass.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, as for the actual UHD it's sensational. It's a bit grittier than Billy Lynn's because that was shot on the 8K Sony F65 while Gemini was captured on regular Alexa at 3.2K and uprezzed to 4K, so you get more of a patina of noise as a result. Not a bad thing as it gives it a bit of texture, especially in the darker scenes, without breaking into the immersive 'you are there' aspect of the HFR. Detail still looks insanely good, not overly sharpened but so damned dense for detail if you ever wanted to count the pores on Will Smith's nose, well, now's your chance. Acuity drops off a bit in the darker scenes but again, not a problem.

The HDR is supremely effective, not just in the usual way of pulling down highlights in brighter areas (though it stops short of resolving every little thing, it still kills the SDR Blu) but it really makes a difference to the intensity of the lighting itself, I challenge you not to squint when Henry shoves the flare into Junior's face in the catacombs! Smaller points of light look similarly vibrant like the little torches that adorn the assault weapons and some of those explosive/incendiary blasts during the finale are incredibly bright too. As wowsome as the minigun sequence is I was just as impressed by a simpler shot of MEW in the catacombs holding a lit flare along with her weapon, it just looks so realistic.

Colour is nice without being overpowering, using the production design to add splashes of colour rather than attaching an overwhelming tint to the visuals themselves, like the environs of Cartagena with all those quirky pastel coloured buildings. As is so often the case the 1080p SDR version of the film adds a subtle yellow tinge which saps some of the essence of the colour in that version e.g. fire leans towards that typical jaundiced SDR look while the HDR grade makes it look rich and orangey, as well as resolving more highlight information of course.

Blacks are fine, they're deep to the point of rolling off a bit more shadow detail than I'd like as the darker spots on hair and clothing can drop off to nothingness, but one thing that I adored was the usage of good old-fashioned 'day for night' when shooting the nighttime exteriors. It's very rarely used any more (Fury Road being another example) but I find it so effective, and now that I live out in the sticks where it gets real dark once the streetlights turn off it's crazy how much light a full moon can give off, even casting some quite punchy little speculars on things like cars and you get that same effect here. It's funny that such a technologically advanced show would use such an old-school technique but the artifice actually works better than ever in HDR.

Regarding compression I have to say that it looked a fraction untidy here and there, mostly in the noise around some of the brightest speculars but I didn't see anything encoding-related on the water as noted in post #615 at all. Now I ain't saying the water doesn't look weird in that dock scene because it does, it's as if the water to the right of Henry's little boat is perfectly in focus while the area to the left as Jack's yacht approaches looks really soft and out of focus but there's no 'blocking' in there that I can see. I checked the 1080p disc in the same place and the same effect is present, albeit less visible owing to the softer resolution and more blown-out visuals, but it is there. So I can only think that it's some sort of VFX fudgery, like they combined different shots of the yacht and the smaller boat and either had to soften that patch of water in front of the yacht to blend the seams, or that the water was actually out of focus to begin with and they just merged the shots anyway.

The $64,000 question: did I have any playback problems? Nothing, nathan, nada. Played back in full-fat 4K60 DV 12-bit first time, no questions asked or raindances performed, and as such there were no blips, skips or dropouts. This was the US disc playing on a Panasonic 820 connected directly to a Sony 65ZD9 (using an HDMI cable that's closer to ten years old than not!):
[Show spoiler]

Love all that you said!!

I'm on the side where people should just watch the movie, moreso than nitpick whether it's 24 or 60. The 60 is incredible, definitely more life-like, and for me, I prefer the more life-like presentation.

Hopefully in the coming years, more film makers will embrace and the technology will better, for HFR presentations!
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Old 02-01-2020, 10:08 PM   #884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davcole View Post
I'm on the side where people should just watch the movie, moreso than nitpick whether it's 24 or 60. The 60 is incredible, definitely more life-like, and for me, I prefer the more life-like presentation.
It's pretty easy to say "just watch it and don't nitpick!" when you like what it's doing. It's harder to say that when you think it looks terrible.
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Old 02-02-2020, 06:22 PM   #885
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It’s funny how the “experts” think the movie looks terrible. Oh the irony!
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Old 02-02-2020, 09:21 PM   #886
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Originally Posted by TXMoviebuff77 View Post
It’s funny how the “experts” think the movie looks terrible. Oh the irony!

I thought it looked excellent. HFR worked well and added realism to the frame. That chase scene is simply superb and I have no idea if it's real or CGI but to me it looked real. Technically the UHD is near flawless.
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Old 02-03-2020, 12:02 AM   #887
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Anyone else have audio distortion around the 1:20 Mark.
It happened earlier in rhe movie too.
When they fisrt got to the catacombs and again in the water and now in the office.
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Old 02-03-2020, 12:10 AM   #888
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It's popping, crackling, echoey, and just becoming more and more distorted as it goes on. It is now unwatchable.
No scuff or scratches on the disk at all.
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Old 02-03-2020, 12:56 AM   #889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post
I thought it looked excellent. HFR worked well and added realism to the frame. That chase scene is simply superb and I have no idea if it's real or CGI but to me it looked real. Technically the UHD is near flawless.
I totally agree
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Old 02-03-2020, 03:04 PM   #890
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
What does the output information screen on the OPPO say? Not the info at the top which is the source, the info at the bottom which is the actual output.
Don't know if Dave 6 ever wrote his results somewhere in this thread. I didn't find it.

Anyhow, I also have a LG B6 and an Oppo UDP-203 Player. The output information from the Oppo was claiming 1080p60 Dolby Vision. The input info on the reciever side also claims DV 1080p60. So I guess they were right. 4k60 DV is not supported by the B6. But it sure as hell looked like 4K60. The scaling must be impeccable!
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Old 02-03-2020, 03:15 PM   #891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kishiro View Post
Don't know if Dave 6 ever wrote his results somewhere in this thread. I didn't find it.

Anyhow, I also have a LG B6 and an Oppo UDP-203 Player. The output information from the Oppo was claiming 1080p60 Dolby Vision. The input info on the reciever side also claims DV 1080p60. So I guess they were right. 4k60 DV is not supported by the B6. But it sure as hell looked like 4K60. The scaling must be impeccable!
Dave came back and said that it was actually playing in 1080p60 DV, yes. But it looks so good anyway because it looks so good, if that makes sense. You start with a source that's as sharp and detailed and full of high brightness 'pop' as this and even a downscale-upscale with HDR will still look excellent - this is basically why 2K upscaled content can work so well in 4K HDR. Not that the >2K resolution of proper 4K sources isn't appreciated (for some recent discs it's made more of a difference than the actual application of HDR) but 2K + HDR is still a hell of a thing.
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Old 02-03-2020, 03:29 PM   #892
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Thanks for the info Geoff.

I was able to play the disc in 4K60 hdr10 with the "HDR: Forced" option on the Oppo. From my viewing distance the 1080p60 DV looked just as good, if not better, than the 4k60 hdr10. Up close I could see a difference in detail. The DV tonemapping and metadata also made a slight difference. In a 'blind'-test from seating distance I might have picked the 1080p60 DV as the 'real' 4K. it was close. Interesting.
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Old 02-03-2020, 10:36 PM   #893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXMoviebuff77 View Post
It’s funny how the “experts” think the movie looks terrible. Oh the irony!
Assuming you're talking to me, I never claimed to be an expert on anything. I probably know more than average about film, but I'm far from anyone important. I just do what I've always done on here, which is read information to educate myself and then call things like I see 'em. To me it looked much more fake than a "normal" movie, which bothered me. To others it doesn't, which is cool. Only thing I don't like is being told one is objectively right or wrong.

If this catches on (which I seriously doubt at this point) then maybe I will get used to it, but for now...
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Old 02-03-2020, 11:53 PM   #894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StingingVelvet View Post
Assuming you're talking to me, I never claimed to be an expert on anything. I probably know more than average about film, but I'm far from anyone important. I just do what I've always done on here, which is read information to educate myself and then call things like I see 'em. To me it looked much more fake than a "normal" movie, which bothered me. To others it doesn't, which is cool. Only thing I don't like is being told one is objectively right or wrong.

If this catches on (which I seriously doubt at this point) then maybe I will get used to it, but for now...
Fair enough & I never said right or wrong. While the movie itself is quite mediocre the way it looks is nice. Just like watching a video game cut scene.
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Old 02-04-2020, 12:50 AM   #895
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It was just a bad disk.
Target swapped it out for me.

Are there any other movies on UHD that have a 60fps?
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Old 02-04-2020, 01:55 AM   #896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gold Ranger View Post
It was just a bad disk.
Target swapped it out for me.

Are there any other movies on UHD that have a 60fps?
The only other one I can think of is Lee's previous film, Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk.
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Old 02-04-2020, 02:05 AM   #897
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alister_M View Post
The only other one I can think of is Lee's previous film, Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk.
I have the Blu-Ray.
I guess I'll upgrade before I watch it.

Thanks.
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Old 02-08-2020, 02:43 AM   #898
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Is it got wrong metadata? It was washed out and I had to switch the projector to a custom curve rather than gamma 2.4.

Just a horrific looking movie though looked and felt like a .made for tv telemovie. If this was something made for a boring advertisement ridden last century network station, I would not be surprised. Not just the frame rate, but the lighting and too clean digital look, plus overly sharoened. And camera movement, composition, etc was just to me cheap and soulless. And the action was just comical. It was just such a shock. I can't believe it is the same dude who directed Hulk, which I love from so many aspects. I hate dumpling on movies, but I'm honestly in a bit of shock.
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Old 02-08-2020, 05:04 AM   #899
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Do you have a full, true 4k set up?
Player, cable and tv?
This movie is absolutely Refrence Quality!
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Old 02-08-2020, 05:43 AM   #900
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobe1969 View Post
Is it got wrong metadata? It was washed out and I had to switch the projector to a custom curve rather than gamma 2.4.

Just a horrific looking movie though looked and felt like a .made for tv telemovie. If this was something made for a boring advertisement ridden last century network station, I would not be surprised. Not just the frame rate, but the lighting and too clean digital look, plus overly sharoened. And camera movement, composition, etc was just to me cheap and soulless. And the action was just comical. It was just such a shock. I can't believe it is the same dude who directed Hulk, which I love from so many aspects. I hate dumpling on movies, but I'm honestly in a bit of shock.
Haven't you heard, our Sony projectors "obviously aren't HDR" so maybe that's why it looked washed out?

And don't you know you are wrong, because this disc looks absolutely amazing?
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