Gemini Man 4K UHD 60fps (2019)

[JudgeJuryExecutioner]

Popped in this disc real quick to see the HFR and boy, it looks so good.

The 4K disc craps all over the streaming version I saw a few years ago.

[emailking]

I've seen streaming HD and 3D disc and 4K disc at 60, the latter 2 are my favorites.

[StingingVelvet]

I literally shut this off halfway through to switch to the streaming version for 24fps. Everyone's different I suppose.

[sojrner]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I literally shut this off halfway through to switch to the streaming version for 24fps. Everyone's different I suppose.

Yeah, everyone's got their thing. I find the 60fps quite nice on it. It just feels right. So silky smooth, unlike interpolating the same for 24fps content. HDR is also very nice on this, making that ending setpiece a nice demo for my system.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by sojrner

Yeah, everyone's got their thing. I find the 60fps quite nice on it. It just feels right. So silky smooth, unlike interpolating the same for 24fps content.

I kinda like the smoothness honestly. My other hobby is RPGs and I play them on PC at like 144fps and when I can only use 60fps I hate it, let alone 24. The issue with movies though is I think high framerate makes them look way more fake. The motorcycle chase in this, to me, looked like people going 10mph filming a movie, rather than like assassins chasing each other. Videogames are already "fake" so it's not relevant there.

[RillIris]

Overall I really liked this in 60, and like that it’s distinctly something different. Some scenes I definitely agree though the slower FPS likely helps the realism of certain effects, on the flip side though, every part with water visible… WOW. The waves really look fantastic at 60fps, in a way they just don’t in other movies that even utilize real water really well. I’m a big fan of Waterworld, and that movie is mostly practical, I’d be really curious to know what some parts of it would have looked like at 60 or even 48 fps.

[sojrner]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I kinda like the smoothness honestly. My other hobby is RPGs and I play them on PC at like 144fps and when I can only use 60fps I hate it, let alone 24. The issue with movies though is I think high framerate makes them look way more fake. The motorcycle chase in this, to me, looked like people going 10mph filming a movie, rather than like assassins chasing each other. Videogames are already "fake" so it's not relevant there.

I actually think with HFR, slow motion no longer has the same effect it does in 24fps, and may be the bigger element working poorly in that chase. I think it's something filmmakers have to reevaluate before using, as it, when coupled with HFR, makes things look weird. As for real vs fake, I'm of the mindset that 24fps movies are fake, and like reading a book, our brains are processing the presentation differently than what we see in RL. This unreality, no matter how "gritty and real," is what we're used to in a movie.

HFR on the other hand is hitting us differently, and (outside of the above slow-mo stuff) is actually realer even as we say "it's not real." What's really meant, I think, is that "it doesn't look like a movie." That is where (for me, with the right story) I think HFR is a nice option to have in the toolbox. Dunno, regardless of that, I still like what Lee did here...

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by sojrner

HFR on the other hand is hitting us differently, and (outside of the above slow-mo stuff) is actually realer even as we say "it's not real." What's really meant, I think, is that "it doesn't look like a movie." That is where (for me, with the right story) I think HFR is a nice option to have in the toolbox. Dunno, regardless of that, I still like what Lee did here...

I guess it's a semantic argument at some point on whether it's "it looks too real and gives away the illusion" versus "it looks less like film." Somewhat a different way of saying the same thing, I suppose. I will say though I'm not someone who resists change in general, so it does boil down to visual appreciation.

In any case, different strokes...

[sojrner]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I guess it's a semantic argument at some point on whether it's "it looks too real and gives away the illusion" versus "it looks less like film." Somewhat a different way of saying the same thing, I suppose. I will say though I'm not someone who resists change in general, so it does boil down to visual appreciation.

In any case, different strokes...

Agreed. Whether semantically shifting or not, I agree it's visual appreciation on either side.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by sojrner

I actually think with HFR, slow motion no longer has the same effect it does in 24fps, and may be the bigger element working poorly in that chase. I think it's something filmmakers have to reevaluate before using, as it, when coupled with HFR, makes things look weird. As for real vs fake, I'm of the mindset that 24fps movies are fake, and like reading a book, our brains are processing the presentation differently than what we see in RL. This unreality, no matter how "gritty and real," is what we're used to in a movie.

HFR on the other hand is hitting us differently, and (outside of the above slow-mo stuff) is actually realer even as we say "it's not real." What's really meant, I think, is that "it doesn't look like a movie." That is where (for me, with the right story) I think HFR is a nice option to have in the toolbox. Dunno, regardless of that, I still like what Lee did here...

Yep yep yep. I don't even see the 'chase scenes look slower' thing during the movie that Velvet always mentions as a drawback. The bike chase looked fine, or should I say no less weird than anything else in the movie.

If anyone has an OPPO then set it to UHD 24 forced and turn off DV and you can output a 30p HDR10 version of the movie, makes it look more 'conventional'.

[sojrner]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

[Show spoiler]Yep yep yep. I don't even see the 'chase scenes look slower' thing during the movie that Velvet always mentions as a drawback.

The bike chase looked fine, or should I say no less weird than anything else in the movie.

[Show spoiler]
If anyone has an OPPO then set it to UHD 24 forced and turn off DV and you can output a 30p HDR10 version of the movie, makes it look more 'conventional'.

...and I think that is the crux. If we are fine with stylized nuances in other movies (once we get into the groove of what they're selling), this one is no different. Sin City, Once Upon a Time in the West, Dark City, Saving Private Ryan, Sisu, Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow, Scott Pilgrim vs The World... these and so. many. more. all have visual flourishes in their presentation that can take some time to get on board with, and some of us never do. (i.e., I struggle with the shutter speed in fight scenes in Gladiator, but it works for me in SPR) Proyecto Géminis is no more odd than all of these, even less so at times. Here's hoping one day we can see others trying their hand with HFR so we have more to compare with.

[captveg]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I literally shut this off halfway through to switch to the streaming version for 24fps. Everyone's different I suppose.

You can always just change the settings on your player to force the frame rate to only output 24fps. Then you'll get the better bitrate of the disc than the streaming version, but at 24fps.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by captveg

You can always just change the settings on your player to force the frame rate to only output 24fps. Then you'll get the better bitrate of the disc than the streaming version, but at 24fps.

Literally not how it works, assuming you're talking about the UHD disc? It's encoded at 60p and 24 into 60 is a non-integer kinda deal. Yes, 24 is turned into 60 all the time thanks to 3:2 pulldown but that's the point: the hardware knows what to do with that signal flow, adding x amount of extra frames/fields to fill it out, it does not know what to do with the reverse situation.

No standalone UHD player on the planet could do this because it's not mandated, there's no way to extract a usable 24fps image without some form of interpolation and synthetic shutter to blend the frames correctly (which is what the actual 24fps versions of Gemini and Billy Lynn's are, brand new frames that are temporally averaged from the 120fps original and dressed up with extra motion blur to look more like proper 24p). Depending on the player you can however force it down to 30p whereby it just chops out exactly half the frames and won't introduce semi-regular dropped frames that make it look randomly stuttery.

Edit: this is also why, when Gemini was first released on UHD, some people with older sets that couldn't handle full-fat player-led Dobly @ 4K60 complained that they were only getting 1080p60 DV and not 2160p60 DV, because the player had no way of changing the frame rate to 4K24 to get around the bandwidth issue. So it had to keep the frame rate and knock the resolution down instead.

[captveg]

You are correct. I was thinking of the method you described to get to 30 (and I see that you mentioned it a few posts up).

[Okiephile]

Originally Posted by emailking

I've seen streaming HD and 3D disc and 4K disc at 60, the latter 2 are my favorites.

3D!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by captveg

You are correct. I was thinking of the method you described to get to 30 (and I see that you mentioned it a few posts up).

No worries. Heck, I'm surprised that that OPPO trick even works, that it wasn't locked out in the hardware or whatever (tho you can't do it when playing it in DV, that stays at 60 no matter what!), but it's a neat little hack. Still gonna watch it in HFR in future tho because I likes it, precious

[emailking]

Couldn't you make 60 go into 24 by throwing out 3 frames in every group of 5? So you throw out 1, take 1, through out 1, take one, throw out 1 and repeat. Not saying it would look great without some kind of smoothing but it seems like it could functionally work. Like the inverse of the 3:2 pull down or something. Granted the players aren't required to handle it at all.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by emailking

Couldn't you make 60 go into 24 by throwing out 3 frames in every group of 5? So you throw out 1, take 1, through out 1, take one, throw out 1 and repeat. Not saying it would look great without some kind of smoothing but it seems like it could functionally work. Like the inverse of the 3:2 pull down or something. Granted the players aren't required to handle it at all.

Functionally working is not the problem, you could make up whatever method you wished to remove the frames, it's the jerkiness created by the inconsistent removal of the frames that's the main issue, eg with your off/on/off/on/off method there'd always be two skipped frames at the start and end of every 5-frame cycle but only one skipped frame in the middle. It'd look weird AF so it'd need to some kind of interpolation or blending along the way (throwing out even more of the original information just to replace it with blended frames) and it's just not worth anyone's time to devise such a system to put into consumer playback products.

A betterer solution might be to bust it down to 30p first - cleanly divisible so it adds no extra judder - and then finagle the 24p out of that, but even then you couldn't just drop every 5th frame as that would also cause jerky motion. Or have the player double it to 120p then divide by five? But again, it's a lot of faffing about for a system that would receive so little use.

[StingingVelvet]

Yeah I really hated the 60 but I wouldn't do weird jury rig stuff to remove it, that would just look bad in a different way.

[HDTV1080P]

Gemini Man is a videophile reference quality movie that everyone with a 4K Blu-ray player should place in their collection to show people what the 4K Blu-ray format can do. I have never seen such a high-quality movie like this before. I will go into more details a little on in my post why everyone that is a videophile should own this movie (I also thought Will Smith did an outstanding job acting in this movie, but even if one does not like this movie, it’s a must have 4K Blu-ray for that amazing image quality that I have never experienced before). The lossless 13.1 Dolby Atmos sound quality sounded good on an old year 2008 7.1 Dolby TrueHD core audio system.

Gemini Man was rated PG-13 by the MPA for “Violence and action throughout, and brief strong language.” Gemini Man was released in theaters in the USA on October 11th 2019 and received a 4K Blu-ray disc release on 1-14-2020. Gemini Man had a budget of $138 million dollars and box office sells of $173.5 million dollars (but sadly according to online information since a large percentage of box office sells goes to the theater chain that showed the movie, and a smaller percentage of box office sells goes to the studio, this Gemini Man movie lost $111.1 million dollars and was considered a box office failure according to online information). quote: "It was estimated the film needed to gross around $275 million worldwide in order to break even; Deadline Hollywood calculated its net loss to be $111.1 million, when factoring together all expenses and revenues." (Wikipedia is one source). Theater chains need to make money since they are going through difficult process to maintain expensive multi-million-dollar IMAX and Dolby Cinema theaters. In the old days in the early to mid-20th Century when studios owned movie theaters, their box office profits were much larger. Some studios have tried a direct to home streaming movie services to try and bypass the box office sells and keep more of the profits. However, most people do not have the space or cannot afford an IMAX or Dolby Cinema theater in their home. Most people’s homes are reduced to a quality projector or OLED screen setup with surround sound that is lacking the IMAX experience.

Gemini Man is a unique science fiction movie with a storyline I enjoyed. I am a fan of Will Smiths acting ability and loved the movie I Robot and The Pursuit of Happiness. Even though I am a fan of his movies I disagree with some of his political views that some websites claim he has (However his past and present religious views were interesting to read about online). Hopefully Will Smith will be in many more movies to come and hopefully some of his classic movies like I Robot will get released on the 4K Blu-ray format one day.

Even if one does not like this movie, Gemini Man is a must own movie on the 4K Blu-ray format for videophiles. Gemini Man was shot digitally in native 4K and printed at 120fps and also 60fps for movie theaters (some theaters 24fps and 2K Blu-ray 24fps). As most people are aware since around the year 1890 around 99% of movies use the 24fps frame rate since that is more economical for both film stock and digital storage. The higher the frame rate the more expensive the production cost will be since one is using more film and more digital storage. It is my understanding that Gemini Man was shown in select IMAX and Dolby Cinema theaters in native 4K Dolby Vision HDR in 3D at a frame rate of 120fps (that is 60fps right eye and 60fps left eye). However, if one got to see Gemini Man in a 2D theater with a modern digital DLP projector then the movie was shown at 60fps. What is so special about this 4K Blu-ray disc release is that this movie is native 4K Dolby Vision HDR at 60fps (60Hz) instead of being native 24fps (24Hz). This is the very first time I have seen a native 60fps movie at 60Hz. The 2K Blu-ray format maxes out at 1080P at 24fps. And with the standard 2K Blu-ray format if one wants 1080P there is only one frame rate 24fps (24Hz). The advantage of the 4K Blu-ray format is that it offers native 60fps (60Hz). As many people already know I am using an old year 2008 Pioneer Elite Signature series PRO-101FD reference 2K plasma display that was top of the line until around the year 2016-2018 when quality 4K OLED displays surpassed the year 2008 Pioneer Elite plasma in overall picture quality (but when it comes to motion quality the Pioneer plasma will beat any flat panel display including OLED. Only a high-end DLP projector will beat the plasma when it comes to motion quality). While I should have upgraded my 2K Pioneer plasma with a 4K OLED screen in 2016-2018, now I am holding off until 2026-2028+ with planned upgrade to 8K display or 8K projector. I have owned a native 4K LCD computer monitor since 2015, but when I connect a year 2016 OPPO UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player to the year 2015 4K computer monitor, all I see is an increased resolution detail and overall my year 2008 2K 50 inch Pioneer plasma has a better picture quality when it comes to black levels, colors, and nice smooth motion of 72Hz using 2D triple flash technology. When I played the Gemini Man on an old year 2008 Pioneer plasma, I was surprised at how good native 60Hz (60fps) material looks when being shown at native 60Hz. Wow, and very awesome motion quality at 60fps!! While this 4K Blu-ray is standard 2D, the amount of depth in the motion made the movie feel like 3D. I have become a big fan of high frame rate movies after watching this movie in native 60fps at 60Hz on a Pioneer plasma. If I owned an OLED screen the limitations of the OLED screen motion quality would mean a double flash to 120Hz would need to occur.

*** If one has an old native 60Hz display that displays at true 60Hz then buy this movie, totally awesome experience. DLP projector owners should experience 60fps with incredible motion quality better than any other display on the market ***

This Gemini Man movie had a realism that I have never seen before, at times the images at 60fps felt like I was watching a 3D movie even though the screen is 2D, the depth in the image was amazing. Color quality even at HDR to SDR conversion was amazing. I wish James Cameron would make the Avatar sequels at native 60fps for 2D and 120fps at 3D. Of course, 240fps for 3D or 2D would be better, but remember the higher frame rate means a much larger movie budget needs to occur. I would not complain if movies are made at 480fps for theaters since they could be converted to 60fps (60Hz) for home displays. The year 2006 2K Blu-ray format is 2D quality at 1080p/24fps. The year 2010 Blu-ray 3D format is 48fps 2K quality with 24fps right eye and 24fps left eye. If one day the BDA approves a new 8K Blu-ray format in 2026-2028+ then the BDA should make the players capable of doing 8K 3D at 120fps or 4K 3D at 240fps. But I wish I could have seen this movie in true 3D 120fps with 4K Dolby Vision HDR, maybe one day.

Because of limitations of my display and A/V receiver the native 4K Blu-ray disc with lossless 13.1 Dolby Atmos was downscaled to 2K SDR with 7.1 Dolby TrueHD core audio. A total of 90.4GB of space is used out of 100GB on the triple layer BD-100 disc. A total of 45.7GB of space out of 50GB is used on the dual layer BD-50 disc. The average HEVC video bit rate for this movie is 80.97Mbps. Both optical discs and the inside of the plastic storage case had white residue that I needed to clean off. But after I cleaned the discs, I experienced flawless perfect playback on my year 2016 OPPO UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player. Several reverse scans and a true reference quality BD-100 disc from Paramount Pictures. There is one native 60fps 4K Dolby Vision extra feature on the 4K Blu-ray disc that lasts around 3 minutes and 2 seconds. All the rest of the extra features are on the standard Blu-ray disc using the MPEG-4/AVC codec with a mixture of 1080P or 1080i depending on which extra feature is being played.

This is a must own 4K Blu-ray disc for all videophiles. Find a DLP projector that outputs 60fps or a plasma that outputs 60Hz, then you will experience motion quality and 2D images that look almost like 3D images. I have become a big fan of high frame rate movies after seeing one for the first time at native 60fps.

https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Gemin...252674/#Review