Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[The Fallen Deity]

Originally Posted by octagon

omg, look at all that lens flare in the first shot!!!

flareImgur.jpg

[DetroitSportsFan]

Not sure if this has been posted before.....

[Show spoiler]

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

True, Lucas did it so it could tie in with the theme of the Sith being backstabbing bastards, but, as with much of what he did in the prequels, he's so enamoured with the idea and/or theme that he's conveying that he doesn't pay much attention to the actual execution of the idea. Palps lying to Vader about Padme is fine, but Padme dying from a broken heart having just given birth to her children is simply laughable. (IIRC they actually retconned it in one of the later novels, saying that a minute fracture in her neck was found afterwards!)

Why couldn't she have just, y'know, died in childbirth, like she bled out or something? Anakin may have precipitated the event itself, but a ruptured placenta or whatever couldn't have been foreseen and may have always been what fate intended for Padme anyway. That way, Palps could still have had his lie remain intact and Padme's death would've been much more convincing, and, dare I say it, heartbreaking. Instead, I just think 'selfish cow'.

What they should have done was have Padme live and hide out with the kids, but she's so depressed that she dies when the kids are about 3-4 years old, then the kids are separated. This way, when Luke asks Leia if she remembers her real mother in Episode VI and she says yes, it would still make some sense. That would have required some additional exposition, but some of the other dumb scenes between Anakin and Padme could have been cut to make up for it.

The Jedi could have communicated that Padme actually had died in childbirth and this way, Palpatine could still have told Vader that Padme was dead. However, I always had a problem with that scene as well. Palpatine had before that scene proven himself a genius at manipulating Anakin and getting him to turn to the dark side. So why take the risk now of having Vader turn against him by telling him that it was his fault that Padme was dead and laughing about it. And since Anakin's motivation in the whole thing was largely about saving Padme (although also about his ego), once he finds out she's dead, why does he loyally follow "the Emperor" for the next 20 years? The whole thing makes no sense.

Logically, Vader should have killed (or attempted to kill) Palpatine right there. Now obviously Vader couldn't have killed Palpatine since he exists in Episode IV. But Lucas could have had Vader attempt to kill Palpatine and Palpatine then overcomes Vader with some Dark Side voodoo which both makes him loyal and destroys some of his memory, which would have made much of the OT make far more sense (like why he doesn't recognize C3PO or R2D2), etc.

[ChainsawJedi]

I believe that people die of broken hearts in fairy tales. Star Wars is a fairy tale.

What's the problem?

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by Auditor55

Episode 7 will be a disappointment(

I couldn't agree more.

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by octagon

She was never a brilliantly written, subtle, layered character but she definitely had her moments.

Could say the same about Leia in the original trilogy and it would be equally true. Indeed, you could say the same about any character in the original trilogy and only someone who didn't know what they're talking about (step forward any number of rose-tinted-spectacle wearing OT fans) would attempt to argue with you.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

I believe that people die of broken hearts in fairy tales. Star Wars is a fairy tale.

What's the problem?

Warriors don't die of broken hearts in fairy tales. Heroes don't die of broken hearts in fairy tales. And fairy tale parents don't generally abandon their newborn children by 'losing the will to live'.

The problem isn't that dying of a broken heart is in and of itself a horrible plot device.

The problem is using that device in this manner basically gutted a cool, capable character. It turned a strong, brave woman into some weepy, maudlin caricature. It was male wish fulfillment run amok.

Other than that it was awesome.

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by R3P0

I try to forget as much as I can from Episode II, there is actually about 10 more grammatical mistakes in that movie I just did not feel like typing them all out before bed so nice try.

"Nice try" - taken from the internet forum users book of cliched responses, volume nine.

"Try, or do not. There is no try." Ergo, I thought I was rather successful in addressing your post which was little more than a list of random lines of dialogue with nothing to support your argument. That's fine, as long as you're not positing the original films as having dialogue worthy of Dickens.

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by octagon

Warriors don't die of broken hearts in fairy tales. Heroes don't die of broken hearts in fairy tales. And fairy tale parents don't generally abandon their newborn children by 'losing the will to live'.

No, fairy tale parents take their kids into the middle of a forest to be eaten by wild animals.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

No, fairy tale parents take their kids into the middle of a forest to be eaten by wild animals.

And that's the kind of person you think Padme was?

Not me. I think having her abandon her children was a complete betrayal of that character.

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by octagon

And that's the kind of person you think Padme was?

Not me. I think having her abandon her children was a complete betrayal of that character.

I'm sure she's not the only woman to have died after giving birth.

Choosing a logical reason for her death might have appeased those who look for logic in fairy stories. But wouldn't such people be better served by watching a film that was known for its logic, rather than Star Wars, a series of films which practically revel in their absence of such?

[octagon]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

I'm sure she's not the only woman to have died after giving birth.

Choosing a logical reason for her death might have appeased those who look for logic in fairy stories. But wouldn't such people be better served by watching a film that was known for its logic, rather than Star Wars, a series of films which practically revel in their absence of such?

Forget logic. How about choosing a less pathetic reason.

As I said earlier, she wasn't the most brilliantly written character but she definitely had her moments. Some of her decisions were ridiculous and some her dialogue was downright awful but the character itself was pretty well conceived.

She wasn't just a prop or arm-candy. She was a player.

She was strong. She was independent. She was smart. She was brave. She was funny. She was sexy. She was a full, well-realized character.

Right up until GL turned her into the last verse of a shitty country song.

Rationalize it however you want but having her die of a broken heart was a terrible decision.

[peckinpah]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

What they should have done was have Padme live and hide out with the kids, but she's so depressed that she dies when the kids are about 3-4 years old, then the kids are separated. This way, when Luke asks Leia if she remembers her real mother in Episode VI and she says yes, it would still make some sense. That would have required some additional exposition, but some of the other dumb scenes between Anakin and Padme could have been cut to make up for it.

But wouldn't that also lead to questions about why Luke says he doesn't remember his real mother? It ends up being a wash.

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by octagon

Right up until GL turned her into the last verse of a shitty country song.

Rationalize it however you want but having her die of a broken heart was a terrible decision.

Funny, I could have sworn you said that dying of a broken heart wasn't a horrible plot device. It either is or it isn't.

I don't need to rationalise it, any more than I need to rationalise planet-destroying battle stations or ships that can fly through hyperspace.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

Could say the same about Leia in the original trilogy and it would be equally true. Indeed, you could say the same about any character in the original trilogy and only someone who didn't know what they're talking about (step forward any number of rose-tinted-spectacle wearing OT fans) would attempt to argue with you.

Ah that old reverse psychology chestnut - OT fans must be as blinkered as those who defend the prequels.

Look I like all the films to a certain degree but the characters in the OT are in a completely different league than the PT. I wouldn't suggest any of the characters in the OT are subtly written but then they were always archetypes and didn't need to be. The difference is the OT is completely focused on them throughout and we experience the story through them. Star Wars has a relentless pace to it and sense of fun that makes the characters easy to identify and likeable.

With the PT, Lucas was actually trying to add some subtlety to the characters as, in his own words, it was a different type of story. As many of said, the problem is that the execution of his themes and ideas let him down. He finds the process of writing difficult (his words not mine) and I think in the case of the PT he simply couldn't balance his desire to show the greater story on the fall of the Republic with the more personal one of Anakin's fall from grace. The story needs demanded more subtle layered characters than the OT and it didnt get them.

In regards to Padme's death, Lucas whole use of dying of a broken heart may well play into the fairy tale theme, but he also said he didnt want it to seem like Anakin had actually caused it. Errr why ?? What are we going to lose sympathy for him after all he has done ?? Robbing Anakin of responsibility for Padme's death in the audience's mind if not in his own was just unnecessary given what he has already done. It makes no sense from a story point of view and creates a WTF moment that we know from what Lucas has said was actually intentional.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

Funny, I could have sworn you said that dying of a broken heart wasn't a horrible plot device. It either is or it isn't.

I don't need to rationalise it, any more than I need to rationalise planet-destroying battle stations or ships that can fly through hyperspace.

Yes you do! It doesn't matter how fantastical the setting, if the characters' behaviour and actions within the setting don't ring true or aren't believable or if plot devices don't organically develop within the story you are screwed.

Hyperspace is a great example. It's used a couple of times in the OT as essentially a plot device to get the characters away. In Star Wars it is used to resolve a chase, but it is merely the prelude to the characters landing in further trouble so it doesn't feel like a narrative cheat. Empire, you could almost say its a convenient "deus ex machina" that resolves the story. But the previous film has already introduced the plot device, the characters had constantly referred to it as their ultimate aim within Empire and the moment when it comes feels an organically natural conclusion rather than a plot device introduced at the last minute to conveniently resolve the story.

Dying of a broken heart literally comes from nowhere... What? Why ? Didn't Anakin do it ?

[R3P0]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

"Nice try" - taken from the internet forum users book of cliched responses, volume nine.

"Try, or do not. There is no try." Ergo, I thought I was rather successful in addressing your post which was little more than a list of random lines of dialogue with nothing to support your argument. That's fine, as long as you're not positing the original films as having dialogue worthy of Dickens.

The original films have there issues with dialogue as well. Were not talking about some of the best writing in history, my argument is simple the writing on the PT is some of the worst I have ever seen. At least with the OT Episode V Irvin Kershner modified it some and to some extent Richard Marquand modified Episode VI some.

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

Dying of a broken heart literally comes from nowhere... What? Why ? Didn't Anakin do it ?

But he does. At the point where he is told that he killed his wife through anger, Anakin dies.

I didn't know Lucas had said that he didn't want it to appear that he was responsible for her death, though. Does he say that in the audio commentary for the Blu-ray? Admittedly, I've only watched the DVDs with the commentary, not the Blu-rays.

[kurtlingle]

Um, is this the Ep 7 thread, or the OT vs the PT thread?

Seems like my 2 favorite movie series (SW 1-6) and MOS (BvS) are full of this back and forth. And with SW it's been going on for years. Maybe there should be a SW OT vs PT thread?

<\rant-over>

[Braktastic]

Padme should've died after giving birth to the twins as a result of complications from being force choked, but Lucas chickened out, as usual. He was so concerned with trying to make Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader sympathetic he wouldn't go down this road and came up with this "losing the will to live crap" instead. You can't make the Josef Goebbels of the Star Wars universe sympathetic. These problems all stem from making Vader Luke's father, which he was never intended to be originally. Yeah, it makes for a helluva twist in Empire, but thoroughly neutered everything that came after it.