Star Wars: The Original Trilogy (1977-1983)

[Spike M.]

The Kylo vs Rey/Ren complaints baffle me.

[Show spoiler]Kylo was barely focusing on his fight with Finn (a trained storm trooper), so much so that he turned his back on him to deal with his gut being torn apart. Finn gets one shot in, which grabs his attention, and Ren makes quick work of him.

Ren was the dominant aggressor against Rey the entire fight and chose to let her live when he had his killing stroke because thems be Snoke's orders, and he only gets beaten because Rey "summons the force" and then uses that power combined with her aforeshown skills with a staff.

Y'all must be watching a different movie.

[The_Donster]

Good stuff for the Force Awakens Spoiler thread

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Josep5349

Not sure what you mean by not-movie, but I'll go on the basis that you mean it was retconned in the animation series and books rather than in the movies. That's not the case, as evidenced by the Temuera Morrison re-voice.

The SE updates are hardly proof of anything. He did those updates before he made Attack of the Clones, a movie which absolutely confirms the stormtroopers were clones, both in its narrative and in his comments on intent in the special features.

It was a decision AFTER that, supposedly shown in the spin-off material, that changed it (again, supposedly).

As I already said, it makes sense to me it would be BOTH. As the clones die off and such, the Emperor brought in human conscripts.

[Gamma_Winstead]

Except it was never canon in the films either. You can't go around waving the "NOT THE FILM" flag, when your own argument is destroyed by the same thing. The troopers in the OT are not clones. The men on the bridge serving the emperor at the end of RotS are not clones. Stormtroopers were never clones, and it was never said that they were clones, no matter what George said in an interview or commentary.

That is a fact.

[WhySoBlu?]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

The SE updates are hardly proof of anything. He did those updates before he made Attack of the Clones, a movie which absolutely confirms the stormtroopers were clones, both in its narrative and in his comments on intent in the special features.

The change to have Temuera Morrison voice Boba Fett clearly happened after Attack of the Clones. And just because the clone troopers are clones doesn't mean the storm troopers are as well. The clones had accelerated life cycles, so they were probably too old or dead by that time.

I'm pretty sure the novelization of the original Star Wars said they were a mix of conscripts and volunteers, but it's been awhile since I've read that.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Gamma_Winstead

Except it was never canon in the films either. You can't go around waving the "NOT THE FILM" flag, when your own argument is destroyed by the same thing. The troopers in the OT are not clones. The men on the bridge serving the emperor at the end of RotS are not clones. Stormtroopers were never clones, and it was never said that they were clones, no matter what George said in an interview or commentary.

That is a fact.

Attack of the Clones itself, just the movie and not the commentary, has plenty of stuff in it that shows they are the stormtroopers. Also the commentary is him explaining his intentions and the point of scenes like Jango hitting his head. I am not using it as continuity, I am using it to emphasize the point of scenes like that IN THE MOVIE.

This argument is so silly. I'm not even a big Star Wars guy, I don't care about these silly continuity arguments. I am just telling you what the movies say on the subject, which is that the original stormtroopers were definitely clones (according to the prequels). I've already said for me personally it makes the most sense to think of them as BOTH by the time of the OT (and certainly the new movies).

[Spike M.]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Attack of the Clones itself, just the movie and not the commentary, has plenty of stuff in it that shows they are the stormtroopers. Also the commentary is him explaining his intentions and the point of scenes like Jango hitting his head. I am not using it as continuity, I am using it to emphasize the point of scenes like that IN THE MOVIE.

This argument is so silly. I'm not even a big Star Wars guy, I don't care about these silly continuity arguments. I am just telling you what the movies say on the subject, which is that the original stormtroopers were definitely clones (according to the prequels). I've already said for me personally it makes the most sense to think of them as BOTH by the time of the OT (and certainly the new movies).

The movie's don't say that though. Until it was explicitly addressed in an episode of Rebels last year, it was constantly a matter of fan debate.

Boba's voice was changed two years after Clones was released. If George wanted to change the Stormtrooper's, he could have.

[Mike1981]

All it takes is a quick google search of "are stormtroopers clones" to confirm via Lucasfilm that they are not...

[StingingVelvet]

Oh my god you guys.

Lucas intended them to be. Is it "canon" now according to the studio or cartoon spin-off? No. I said that already. All I am saying is he intended them to be, and for AotC to show them to be, which HE SAYS IN THE COMMENTARY HIMSELF. It's not debatable. It's a fact.

For people who don't give a crap about anything but the movies I think "they're both" is a fine compromise.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

The SE updates are hardly proof of anything. He did those updates before he made Attack of the Clones, a movie which absolutely confirms the stormtroopers were clones, both in its narrative and in his comments on intent in the special features.

What in the Clones narrative absolutely confirms the OT stormtroopers were clones? Jango bumping his head and a stormtrooper bumping his head twenty years later?

That's a little thin, no?

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by octagon

What in the Clones narrative absolutely confirms the OT stormtroopers were clones? Jango bumping his head and a stormtrooper bumping his head twenty years later?

That's a little thin, no?

As said above, I don't need to prove anything. Lucas says it himself. Have cartoon writers and new Lucasfilm people overridden him since then? It seems so. I never said otherwise. You're arguing against proven fact for no apparent reason.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

As said above, I don't need to prove anything. Lucas says it himself. Have cartoon writers and new Lucasfilm people overridden him since then? It seems so. I never said otherwise. You're arguing against proven fact for no apparent reason.

Well, you said the Clones narrative absolutely confirms the OT stormtroopers are clones, didn't you?

I mean, you're right, you don't need give provide examples of how it does that but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask.

As for my reasons, it's simple: I'm curious. I don't remember the Clones narrative speaking to the question of whether the OT stormtroopers were clones let alone absolutely confirming that.

[JamesKurtovich]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

As I already said, it makes sense to me it would be BOTH. As the clones die off and such, the Emperor brought in human conscripts.

Those clones looked to be about Jango's age in AOTC. Late-thirties, maybe? I doubt any of those guys are still around by the time of IV/V/VI.

[Gamma_Winstead]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

As said above, I don't need to prove anything. Lucas says it himself. Have cartoon writers and new Lucasfilm people overridden him since then? It seems so. I never said otherwise. You're arguing against proven fact for no apparent reason.

Whether he intended them to be in AotC or not, he changed his mind by RotS, and thus it doesn't matter what he said in a commentary in 2002. Clones are not Stormtroopers in the original trilogy. That is a fact as well, and you're arguing it for no reason also.

This whole argument is the blind leading the blind.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

I am watching Star Wars right now and Han just shot Greedo.

Harmy deserves a lifetime recognition award at this year's Oscar ceremony.


This is my favorite Empire poster and probably my favorite of the saga.

Love that one!

[Blu Titan]

Piracy discussion is NOT allowed. Thanks.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by octagon

Well, you said the Clones narrative absolutely confirms the OT stormtroopers are clones, didn't you?

I mean, you're right, you don't need give provide examples of how it does that but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask.

As for my reasons, it's simple: I'm curious. I don't remember the Clones narrative speaking to the question of whether the OT stormtroopers were clones let alone absolutely confirming that.

My statement was only that Lucas intended them to be the same troops when he made AotC. If the imagery in that movie isn't enough to sell that (uniforms, marching, Jango hitting his head, music) then it's lucky Lucas himself, the writer and director of the film, made that clear in the supplemental materials. It is a fact that that was the intention in that movie. I see no need to argue facts.

In my very first post on the subject I also said that newer material has apparently retconned this. Everyone freaking out since my original post is in a hurry to tell me "LUKAZFILM CONFURMED NO MOORE CANON" when I already said that.

[WhySoBlu?]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

My statement was only that Lucas intended them to be the same troops when he made AotC. If the imagery in that movie isn't enough to sell that (uniforms, marching, Jango hitting his head, music) then it's lucky Lucas himself, the writer and director of the film, made that clear in the supplemental materials. It is a fact that that was the intention in that movie. I see no need to argue facts.

In my very first post on the subject I also said that newer material has apparently retconned this. Everyone freaking out since my original post is in a hurry to tell me "LUKAZFILM CONFURMED NO MOORE CANON" when I already said that.

Of course, you had no response when it was pointed out to you that the novelization (which cites George Lucas as the writer) says that the storm troopers aren't clones, but a mix of volunteers and conscripts. You also seemed to ignore the fact that you were wrong about when the change was made to Boba's voice (and you apparently have no explanation for why none of the storm troopers in the Special Edition versions of the OT have his voice.)

It's beyond obvious that the clone troopers are not the same as the storm troopers, but perhaps that's because I'm a big fan of Star Wars and you're "not even a big Star Wars guy."

[Rodney-2187]

TROOPS - A Star Wars Fan Film - YouTube

[Gamma_Winstead]

Originally Posted by WhySoBlu?

Of course, you had no response when it was pointed out to you that the novelization (which cites George Lucas as the writer) says that the storm troopers aren't clones, but a mix of volunteers and conscripts. You also seemed to ignore the fact that you were wrong about when the change was made to Boba's voice (and you apparently have no explanation for why none of the storm troopers in the Special Edition versions of the OT have his voice.)

It's beyond obvious that the clone troopers are not the same as the storm troopers, but perhaps that's because I'm a big fan of Star Wars and you're "not even a big Star Wars guy."

which I find hilarious since he's citing the commentaries. Who watches commentaries on films they aren't fans of?