Star Wars: The Original Trilogy (1977-1983)

[socal9]

My wife and I rewatched all the Star Wars movies in anticipation of VII. IMHO, one of the things that set apart the Original Trilogy from the prequels was the chemistry between Harrison Ford, Mark Hamill, and Carrie Fisher. They played well off each other and seemed quite "relaxed" in their roles. There really wasn't much chemistry between the characters in the prequels. Everything seemed forced and quite pretentious.

However I will admit that the freaking Ewoks started getting on my nerves in Return of the Jedi.

[toddly6666]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

Obi Wan is such a douche bag. He could have just said sorry and said he lied in order to protect Luke and Leia. But instead he gives some baloney excuse about different truths from different perspectives. Just say sorry for christs sake!

[dgoswald]

Originally Posted by toddly6666

Obi Wan is such a douche bag. He could have just said sorry and said he lied in order to protect Luke and Leia. But instead he gives some baloney excuse about different truths from different perspectives. Just say sorry for christs sake!

You already know this - I'm guessing - but when Lucas wrote ANH, Anakin and Vader weren't the same people. It's clear to see through Guinness's line readings and facial reactions that he was reminiscing about two different people. The bit with Uncle Lars not getting on with Anakin (disagreeing with him about going off to fight the Empire) is another telling indication.

I love the above meme, though. Cracks me up.

[dubious]

Originally Posted by toddly6666

Obi Wan is such a douche bag. He could have just said sorry and said he lied in order to protect Luke and Leia. But instead he gives some baloney excuse about different truths from different perspectives. Just say sorry for christs sake!

"Sorry kid, your dad was a homicidal maniac that slaughtered a room full of younglings and Jedi mind-tricked your mom into the sack with a kid half her age... and managed to cause her enough anguish that she killed over after seeing that she had just given birth to the two spawns of Satan... but, no, Luke, your dad was a cool dude, really! I'm sure you'll turn out just fine."

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by dubious

"Sorry kid, your dad was a homicidal maniac that slaughtered a room full of younglings and Jedi mind-tricked your mom into the sack with a kid half her age... and managed to cause her enough anguish that she killed over after seeing that she had just given birth to the two spawns of Satan... but, no, Luke, your dad was a cool dude, really! I'm sure you'll turn out just fine."

Must've missed that, or more likely, it didn't happen that way.

[dubious]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

Must've missed that, or more likely, it didn't happen that way.

Depends what SE version you watch. Anakin shot first.

[LordCrumb]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

Just as well the prequel trilogy doesn't mean anything to the true fan eh!

What else was he going to say? "Your father became a homicidal maniac, I chopped his arms and legs off and took his lightsabre".

[Brightstar]

If 20th century fox holds the rights for the original 1977 film Star Wars (no new hope or IV ) does that mean we will never see the UOT till 2020 ? if this 1977 print does exist can it be remaster or is it too damaged ?

[toddly6666]

Just a reminder - the prequels came after the OT.

Old Obi Wan's lies stand out from first New Hope because they didnt have sequels in mind. Also why we see Luke getting inappropriately kissed by his sister. Obi Wan could have also told Luke, "Dont get too close to Leah - having kids with mental problems is no fun."

[blonde_devil]

Originally Posted by Brightstar

If 20th century fox holds the rights for the original 1977 film Star Wars (no new hope or IV ) does that mean we will never see the UOT till 2020 ? if this 1977 print does exist can it be remaster or is it too damaged ?

Doesn't matter what we call it, they own the distribution rights to the original film while Disney owns the rest now. 2020 means nothing, Fox owns those rights forever while Disney owns the actual film. If Disney wants to release it, they need to make a deal with Fox - simple as that. As for the original version, Lucas said he only remastered what he wanted but popular opinion is that the whole thing was done since the film was falling apart but that has never been confirmed. Doesn't make sense though that he would let the film fall apart if it was that bad. If he didn't, doesn't mean they can't remaster it but it makes it a lot harder since you will need to find a good quality negative somewhere and use that. Other films have been done that way but with all the effects, it will be a lot harder for Star Wars if ILM doesn't have the original elements to recombine. But until Disney confirms any of this, it is all just rumor right now.

[dgoswald]

Having watched ESB on Bluray for the first time a few days ago, I must say how brilliant the Yoda puppet is. He feels like a real person. That authentic sense of interaction between two actors (even when one of the actors is operating a puppet) is unbeatable. I can appreciate why Yoda became a fan favourite with just a relatively short appearance in ESB. Maybe less would've been more in the PT?

[Demented D]

Originally Posted by Gamma_Winstead

The heck is wrong with that empire poster? Did someone randomly paste Luke, Han and Leia into it? Why?

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by dgoswald

Having watched ESB on Bluray for the first time a few days ago, I must say how brilliant the Yoda puppet is. He feels like a real person. That authentic sense of interaction between two actors (even when one of the actors is operating a puppet) is unbeatable. I can appreciate why Yoda became a fan favourite with just a relatively short appearance in ESB. Maybe less would've been more in the PT?

replacing the Yoda puppet with the CGI one in TPM is another one of those Lucas changes that actually helps. No way the puppet could ever do what Lucas wanted from the character anyway. The puppet is great in ESB but the CG version was no slouch either. (I'd never endorse replacing OT Yoda with CGI though, I remember there being a vague threat that that would happen years ago.)

[dgoswald]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

replacing the Yoda puppet with the CGI one in TPM is another one of those Lucas changes that actually helps. No way the puppet could ever do what Lucas wanted from the character anyway. The puppet is great in ESB but the CG version was no slouch either. (I'd never endorse replacing OT Yoda with CGI though, I remember there being a vague threat that that would happen years ago.)

I guess that's what I was alluding to, because watching ESB it struck me that possibly Yoda could've been used sparingly in the PT? But that would've taken a huge overhaul of the story and the plot for the PT; Lucas literally would've had to start from scratch. There are moments, moods and feelings in the OT that reference earlier times (the PT era) that fail to come close to being realised as promised in the OT. It really is as if two different Lucas' created both trilogies.

[Brightstar]

Originally Posted by blonde_devil

Doesn't matter what we call it, they own the distribution rights to the original film while Disney owns the rest now. 2020 means nothing, Fox owns those rights forever while Disney owns the actual film. If Disney wants to release it, they need to make a deal with Fox - simple as that. As for the original version, Lucas said he only remastered what he wanted but popular opinion is that the whole thing was done since the film was falling apart but that has never been confirmed. Doesn't make sense though that he would let the film fall apart if it was that bad. If he didn't, doesn't mean they can't remaster it but it makes it a lot harder since you will need to find a good quality negative somewhere and use that. Other films have been done that way but with all the effects, it will be a lot harder for Star Wars if ILM doesn't have the original elements to recombine. But until Disney confirms any of this, it is all just rumor right now.

In 1995 Lucus pulled out the star wars trilogy for Restoration so he can make the SE but was shocked at the print becouse it was blue . If he didnt restore them as soon as possible the films whould have gone forever never to be seen again

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by dgoswald

I guess that's what I was alluding to, because watching ESB it struck me that possibly Yoda could've been used sparingly in the PT? But that would've taken a huge overhaul of the story and the plot for the PT; Lucas literally would've had to start from scratch. There are moments, moods and feelings in the OT that reference earlier times (the PT era) that fail to come close to being realised as promised in the OT. It really is as if two different Lucas' created both trilogies.

Yeah, basically you have to write and plot the movie to suit the effects. ESB is structured in a way where the puppet works, and thus as a real thing it is much more believable than animation. However the prequels were written and structured in a way where a lot of the aliens, including Yoda, had to be animation to do what Lucas wanted them to do. If he said "it's all going to be puppets and costumes again" he would have written the movies differently. It changed the whole tone and feel of the series.

I noticed this watching The Hobbit special features the last couple days. Jackson tried orc and goblin costumes at first but he wanted them to do stuff only CGI can really do, so he was annoyed and unhappy with the outcome and made them all CGI in post. Now the movies look fake as shit compared to LotR, but he designed the plot and action in a way that necessitated it. So really, at the end of the day, perhaps my issue with these overly fake-looking movies is more about director intention than it is CGI itself.

Also Phantom Menace's Yoda puppet looked like ass anyway, and was a poorly made puppet.

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Yeah, basically you have to write and plot the movie to suit the effects. ESB is structured in a way where the puppet works, and thus as a real thing it is much more believable than animation. However the prequels were written and structured in a way where a lot of the aliens, including Yoda, had to be animation to do what Lucas wanted them to do. If he said "it's all going to be puppets and costumes again" he would have written the movies differently. It changed the whole tone and feel of the series.

I noticed this watching The Hobbit special features the last couple days. Jackson tried orc and goblin costumes at first but he wanted them to do stuff only CGI can really do, so he was annoyed and unhappy with the outcome and made them all CGI in post. Now the movies look fake as shit compared to LotR, but he designed the plot and action in a way that necessitated it. So really, at the end of the day, perhaps my issue with these overly fake-looking movies is more about director intention than it is CGI itself.

Also Phantom Menace's Yoda puppet looked like ass anyway, and was a poorly made puppet.

After seeing the TPM puppet, Lucas reportedly wanted to change the story to make it so that Yoda was recovering from meth addiction. I'm hoping those deleted scenes make it onto a future box set.

Re: The Hobbit, IIRC Jackson's main concern was wanting the orcs and goblins to have a wider variety of faces and body types. He wanted them to look less human and more grotesque/fantastical, which required CGI. I think Jackson would've been more open to using real elements wherever possible if he could have (also the super-compressed prep time and shooting schedule probably necessitated using more CGI rather than creating physical elements).

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

Re: The Hobbit, IIRC Jackson's main concern was wanting the orcs and goblins to have a wider variety of faces and body types. He wanted them to look less human and more grotesque/fantastical, which required CGI. I think Jackson would've been more open to using real elements wherever possible if he could have (also the super-compressed prep time and shooting schedule probably necessitated using more CGI rather than creating physical elements).

He wanted more over-the-top spectacle, judging by the documentaries. He wanted a 1,000 goblins on-screen rather than 50, he wanted a baby one with a poop basket, he wanted them crawling on the ceilings and under the bridges. The original costumes had different looks and different heights, that wasn't the issue.

The entire tone is changed in those movies as a result. Also even though he used a lot of sets and locations he completely bathed them in digital tweaks to the point it all looks like green-screen anyway. He, like Lucas, is very much a filmmaker who has embraced CGI and digital post-production as a way to make the film look exactly like it does in his head, even if it means the film also looks much less real and way more animated. It's just the priorities of these two directors, for better or (IMO) worse.

[Geoff D]

Pffft. The tone has changed entirely because it's a different story, there's a MUCH darker bent to LOTR in general. I've segued into watching LOTR right after the Hobbit and given how the former is looked upon I'm surprised by how much digital manipulation there is in the LOTR flicks. Right in the opening scene you've got Sauron bashing his way through swathes of rubbery CG bodies and there's plenty more where that came from.

Is there more of a basis in 'reality' in LOTR than in the Hobbitses? Unquestionably, and the film acquisition gives it a different look by default, but there's still loads of digital doubles in the wider shots (and some not so wider shots!), digital set extensions, blatant blue-screen inserts, CG trolls/wargs/mumakils etc, the mass-generated hordes of Uruks at Helm's Deep, the swarms of Orcs crawling all over the place (including ceilings) in Moria and so on. Even then Jackson was using CG to augment the Orcs too, there's a shot of one with massive eyes (in Moria, I think) that's an obvious digital touch up.

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

He wanted more over-the-top spectacle, judging by the documentaries. He wanted a 1,000 goblins on-screen rather than 50, he wanted a baby one with a poop basket, he wanted them crawling on the ceilings and under the bridges. The original costumes had different looks and different heights, that wasn't the issue.

The entire tone is changed in those movies as a result. Also even though he used a lot of sets and locations he completely bathed them in digital tweaks to the point it all looks like green-screen anyway. He, like Lucas, is very much a filmmaker who has embraced CGI and digital post-production as a way to make the film look exactly like it does in his head, even if it means the film also looks much less real and way more animated. It's just the priorities of these two directors, for better or (IMO) worse.

LOTR had all the things in your first paragraph as well, but the benefit of mixing that with more practical elements when we saw creatures up-close. Jackson wanted different looks so he went with CGI (can't remember exactly where he says it). But as Geoff says, the tone of the film was always gonna be substantially different from LOTR simply because of the source material. If Jackson had done the straight Hobbit adaptation so many have pined for, we could very well have ended up with a single PG movie (and frankly been worse off for it). I don't really have a problem with the amount of CGI in The Hobbit, just the quality of some of it. There is some piss-poor green screen work in TBotFA and parts of DoS look like an iPhone game (I remember the shot of Legolas riding after Bolg in Lake-Town looking especially bad in theaters but I think they improved it for the Blu-ray... also it's super-obvious whenever the shot transitions from real actor to CG double, i.e. Legolas in Lake-Town or Bilbo falling into the spider's web in Mirkwood).

[Show spoiler](I don't think we're in the right thread for this haha)