HDR Discussion Thread

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well I do.

Because that’s creepy Geoff. I hadn’t read your post (in fact, no disrespect to other contributors there, but until you hyperlinked it here, I hadn’t read any of the postings on that particular thread) and now I see we’ve both used the word “magically” in conversation with another member.

Is some higher order messing with our brains and we don’t know it?....or am I eating the same food as you are.

I do like a big bowl of pasta. And bacon sandwiches. But perhaps it's more of a reaction to the near-religious fervour that dynamic HDR (espeshally dat Dobly) seems to inspire in people? It is for me, anyway: I just wanna cut through the PR-parroting bullshit and see it for myself which is why I've been toying with the idea of buying a ZD9 (which has been promised a DV upgrade by Sony).

A loaded question gets the response it deserves. Well played, sir.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

....Well played, sir.

Man, today I’m suffering from constitutional crisis blues after yesterdays Presidential blindside and contempt for independent investigations and the separation of powers which is what our democracy was founded upon. I’ll try to post something technical to work my way out of the troubling mindset.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

recognize anyone ? (watch till the very end)….

SMPTE JAM 2013 - Resolution Blues - YouTube

As to a recent non-musical appearance in Philly by one of the members of da band with regards to consumer TVs, HDMI 2.1, Ultra HD Blu-ray, etc., see a post including the SMPTE YouTube link from yesterday morning when life wasn't so unsettled - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...y#post13576062

[Penton-Man]

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...g#post13574581

^ marty, yes, the peak luminance of Planet Earth II (hovering around 500 nits) is confusing to people who follow the HDR topic closely…..and I think it would be helpful/insightful if eventually BBC spokesperson(s) publicly explained the transcode work by films at 59, given guidelines by UK DPP….. https://www.digitalproductionpartner...uk/who-we-are/

One moment while I find the respective pdf.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

the respective pdf.

Here, scroll down to the very end, Section 5.2., last sentence -
https://dpp-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/...Supplement.pdf

[2themax]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...g#post13574581

^ marty, yes, the peak luminance of Planet Earth II (hovering around 500 nits) is confusing to people who follow the HDR topic closely…..and I think it would be helpful/insightful if eventually BBC spokesperson(s) publicly explained the transcode work by films at 59, given guidelines by UK DPP….. https://www.digitalproductionpartner...uk/who-we-are/

One moment while I find the respective pdf.

One thing to consider is that calculating nits on a 10bit 4:2:0 YCbCr source will be inaccurate. For the correct calculation, you would have to have the 16bit 4:4:4 RGB source.

[Geoff D]

Might be a very simple answer: was it graded at 500 nits to begin with? Given what zmarty said in his video about the HDR grade coming very late in the process - which would indicate that the camera sources themselves weren't all primed for this purpose, as he also points out - it could be that they alighted on 500 nits as a 'catch-weight' of peak brightness/range between the various sources.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Man, today I’m suffering from constitutional crisis blues after yesterdays Presidential blindside and contempt for independent investigations and the separation of powers which is what our democracy was founded upon. I’ll try to post something technical to work my way out of the troubling mindset.

I need some nostalgia sci-fi today, stat!

[zmarty]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Might be a very simple answer: was it graded at 500 nits to begin with? Given what zmarty said in his video about the HDR grade coming very late in the process - which would indicate that the camera sources themselves weren't all primed for this purpose, as he also points out - it could be that they alighted on 500 nits as a 'catch-weight' of peak brightness/range between the various sources.

Rocky Mountain Express is also interesting, as it is capped at 300, as I recently mentioned in that thread. I can tell just by looking at the waveform that they "cheated" and just started from the SDR grade there.

But Planet Earth II is actually better, they seem to have done a better HDR grade and they seem to have started from the RAW R3D and Sony S-Log footage, not from the SDR grade. I am just curios why the limit.

If you are curious how I can tell if they started from an SDR grade, it is actually really obvious from the shape of the waveform. I also work with SDR to HDR conversion daily.

[zmarty]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

... the near-religious fervour that dynamic HDR (espeshally dat Dobly) seems to inspire in people?

You may find comfort in the fact that dynamic metadata is less and less needed as time goes by. Quoting from Steve Shaw (Light Illusion):

"The metadata included with any PQ based HDR delivery is used to tone map the image to suite the display on any HDR display that has a lower peak luma than the mastering display. It is not really needed on displays that are brighter than the mastering HDR display. [...] With consumer TVs now offering peak luma close to the grading displays there is less and less need for dynamic metadata."

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by zmarty

You may find comfort in the fact that dynamic metadata is less and less needed as time goes by. Quoting from Steve Shaw (Light Illusion):

"The metadata included with any PQ based HDR delivery is used to tone map the image to suite the display on any HDR display that has a lower peak luma than the mastering display. It is not really needed on displays that are brighter than the mastering HDR display. [...] With consumer TVs now offering peak luma close to the grading displays there is less and less need for dynamic metadata."

I asked Geoff this before so this is kind of redundant, but this metadata stuff everyone is obsessing over is really allow about mapping on sets with lower than HDR Premium nits? I guess that's not surprising since even some premium OLEDs top out at 5-600 nits, so I guess a lot of people have that issue. Since I have a set with 1400 though, I guess I need to start glossing over all this metadata rambling?

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I asked Geoff this before so this is kind of redundant, but this metadata stuff everyone is obsessing over is really allow about mapping on sets with lower than HDR Premium nits? I guess that's not surprising since even some premium OLEDs top out at 5-600 nits, so I guess a lot of people have that issue. Since I have a set with 1400 though, I guess I need to start glossing over all this metadata rambling?

It depends on how they master the HDR10 versions. If they strictly adhere to keeping them at 1000 nits and P3 colorspace, then you are fine. But I doubt they will since they don't now. The original Lego Movie, one of the very first UHD releases, already has averages around 1500 nits and peaks around 2200 nits as this white paper shows. It is inevitable that they will continue to move to higher nit masters and full 2020 colorspace as display tech evolves. Dolby continuously points out that the PQ curve is designed for 10,000 nits. And they'll hit it eventually. So unless you plan on buying a top of the line display every year, you are in the same boat as the lower nit displays.

The upcoming Lego Batman disc should be another interesting case study. The Dolby Cinema grade was the first movie to have nearly full rec.2020 during the entire movie. I'm not sure if the home grade will include that wider gamut than the typical 4000 nit P3 grade done on a Dolby Pulsar. But if it does, then your display will need to tone map the color like everyone else's. And dynamic metadata would be the preferred method.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I asked Geoff this before so this is kind of redundant, but this metadata stuff everyone is obsessing over is really allow about mapping on sets with lower than HDR Premium nits? I guess that's not surprising since even some premium OLEDs top out at 5-600 nits, so I guess a lot of people have that issue. Since I have a set with 1400 though, I guess I need to start glossing over all this metadata rambling?

Not only that, but the TV has very accurate tone mapping already. So even stuff mastered at 4000 nits looks very good.

It will be interesting to see how much difference HDR10+ makes in comparison to HDR10 on this TV. It won't be a huge upgrade overall, but I expect some scenes to benefit noticeably from it.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by zmarty

....With consumer TVs now offering peak luma close to the grading displays there is less and less need for dynamic metadata."

To be fair to Dolby’s aspirations though, keep in mind that even right now nearly ½ of the Ultra HD Blu-ray titles on the market (and obviously more to come) are mastered to a 4000 nit spec, which the Pulsar
boasts and some of those movies actually do have scenes with a MaxCLL exceeding 1000 nits.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Might be a very simple answer: was it graded at 500 nits to begin with? Given what zmarty said in his video about the HDR grade coming very late in the process - which would indicate that the camera sources themselves weren't all primed for this purpose, as he also points out - it could be that they alighted on 500 nits as a 'catch-weight' of peak brightness/range between the various sources.

Bingo.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by zmarty

You may find comfort in the fact that dynamic metadata is less and less needed as time goes by. Quoting from Steve Shaw (Light Illusion):

"The metadata included with any PQ based HDR delivery is used to tone map the image to suite the display on any HDR display that has a lower peak luma than the mastering display. It is not really needed on displays that are brighter than the mastering HDR display. [...] With consumer TVs now offering peak luma close to the grading displays there is less and less need for dynamic metadata."

Sure, I've said the same thing before:, although to address Penton's follow-up below I'm also quite aware also that 4000-nit grades (reflecting the Pulsars that they were graded on) are also very common on UHD disc at the moment. But, with that and the imminent launch of DV on disc in mind:

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

To be fair to Dolby’s aspirations though, keep in mind that even right now nearly ½ of the Ultra HD Blu-ray titles on the market (and obviously more to come) are mastered to a 4000 nit spec, which the Pulsar
boasts and some of those movies actually do have scenes with a MaxCLL exceeding 1000 nits.

....what are the odds that when the studios (well, the ones who are mastering 4000-nit HDR10) start using Dolby Vision on disc that the HDR10 layer gets busted down to 1000 nits? This would help to at least give a proper representation of the image on "HDR1000" sets that lack DV.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

....what are the odds that when the studios (well, the ones who are mastering 4000-nit HDR10) start using Dolby Vision on disc that the HDR10 layer gets busted down to 1000 nits? This would help to at least give a proper representation of the image on "HDR1000" sets that lack DV.

I'm slightly wary because there is already one example I know of, Jupiter Ascending, where the movie has a good Dolby Vision version on streaming but a dark mess of a UHD in HDR 10. Studio home video departments are underfunded and understaffed now, and they can be lazy. If Dolby Vision takes over as the dominant form of HDR we might see a lot of iffy HDR 10 conversions on disc.

My telly has full nits and supposedly great tone mapping. Warner titles made for 4,000 nits look just fine on it. But if they botch the conversion then it doesn't matter.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I'm slightly wary because there is already one example I know of, Jupiter Ascending, where the movie has a good Dolby Vision version on streaming but a dark mess of a UHD in HDR 10. Studio home video departments are underfunded and understaffed now, and they can be lazy. If Dolby Vision takes over as the dominant form of HDR we might see a lot of iffy HDR 10 conversions on disc.

My telly has full nits and supposedly great tone mapping. Warner titles made for 4,000 nits look just fine on it. But if they botch the conversion then it doesn't matter.

Yeah, but was that person's example of Jupiter Ascending in DV viewed on an OLED (where many DV versions have been proclaimed to be far superior to HDR10, which I'm sure has nothing to do with LG's wonky HDR10 mapping or anything) or a high-luminance LCD?

If it really is fubar then what puzzles me is that Jupiter Ascending on UHD disc is still a 4000-nit mastering, if it follows Warners' current M.O., so if it truly is wrecked on HDR10 UHD then one wonders just how they managed to botch the conversion so spectacularly, given that all it really needed was dithering from 12-bit down to 10.

I think it's always there in people's minds that a 'lesser' version of something is typically given less thought than the 'main' version, and that could well happen with the HDR10 base layer on DV discs, but the HDR10 layer is actually derived from a re-mapping of the DV original using the same metadata that everyone's getting so wet about so I'm not pushing the panic button just yet.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yeah, but was that person's example of Jupiter Ascending in DV viewed on an OLED (where many DV versions have been proclaimed to be far superior to HDR10, which I'm sure has nothing to do with LG's wonky HDR10 mapping or anything) or a high-luminance LCD?

If it really is fubar then what puzzles me is that Jupiter Ascending on UHD disc is still a 4000-nit mastering, if it follows Warners' current M.O., so if it truly is wrecked on HDR10 UHD then one wonders just how they managed to botch the conversion so spectacularly, given that all it really needed was dithering from 12-bit down to 10.

Fair enough, I can't see the DV version. I just know the HDR 10 version is insanely dark, to the point action scenes are hard to make out at times. It does have nice color though.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

At least two new cameras (which were being shown privately at NAB) will publicly debut at Cine Gear Expo LA next month. Time to register now folks.

For locals not quite that interested in cameras per se, sometimes the screenings are worthwhile….

^ Which was a hint especially if you happen to be a bike rider like me. Follow-up, as the original link at the time of that above post mentioned only that details were to come.

That time is today. The Screenings just now officially announced…..http://www.cinegearexpo.com/la-expo-special-screenings

Le Ride - Official Trailer - YouTube