Prometheus (2012)

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

"I really don't know how a lot of this stuff works. I'm really just a systems management man. I say build me a laser this, design me a a molecular analyzer that, and they do and I just stick them together."

-Seth Brundle

So are you saying Ridley Scott is like Seth Brundle? If so, he had a better team of engineers (or in this case, writers and conceptualists) during Alien than he did during Prometheus.

BTW, Cronenberg's The Fly is one of my all-time favorite films.


Quality aside, what I find interesting is that Prometheus is much like two other movies Fox has produced in recent years -- X-Men: First Class and Rise of the Planet of the Apes. All are basically quasi-reboots/quasi-prequels that don't mesh well continuity-wise with their predecessors. Fox didn't seem to have enough conviction to make them either a solid reboot or a solid prequel, so they skated around the issue and tried to do both, which inevitably made for inconsistencies (contradictions) in the continuity when lined up against the other films in the franchise. With Rise of the Planet of the Apes, there doesn't seem to be too much problem with continuity, because it pretty much stands on its own, but with X-Men, they're now trying to fix the inconsistencies by bringing First Class more in line with the other X-Men films through Days of Future Past. I imagine they will attempt to do the same thing with Prometheus 2, if we ever see it, but I can only wonder if Ridley is really all that interested in making Prometheus any more connected to Alien than he's already done.

[Hypnosifl]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

Well, that's not really the point I was trying to make, but rather that I think Ridley Scott worked better as a director following the lead that was established by Dan O'Bannon's script and H.R. Giger's designs, instead of taking the lead as he did in Prometheus and re-envisioning everything his way.

But what do you mean by "the lead that was established by ... H.R. Giger's designs?" Did he change any elements of the script in response to Giger's design work? If not, do you think Prometheus would have been "better" in any specific ways if Giger was more closely involved in the design work but just as uninvolved in the script?

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

So are you saying Ridley Scott is like Seth Brundle? If so, he had a better team of engineers (or in this case, writers and conceptualists) during Alien than he did during Prometheus.

I'm kinda agreeing with what you are saying. In ALIEN, he appears to have let each specialist build their component and then he stuck them all together, but in Prometheus he seemed to be following his own scheme a little more this time. The Brundle line just popped into my head when you made your point.

And yes, Chroneneberg's Fly was awesome. One of my favs as well.

[mrr1]

Seeing this thread reminds me that I should watch the documentaries that came with this movie.

I thought the movie was OK (despite the loose ends left dangling all over the place), but I suspect I'll like it a lot more if I learn what the intent was.

[warrian]

Originally Posted by mrr1

Seeing this thread reminds me that I should watch the documentaries that came with this movie.

I thought the movie was OK (despite the loose ends left dangling all over the place), but I suspect I'll like it a lot more if I learn what the intent was.

The documentaries on this set are fantastic. But, at least to me, they had the opposite effect of what you describe above. It's more like you get watch them push the thing toward more ambiguity and greater mediocrity inch by inch as they go.

I like Prometheus but I still find it tragic that they had the ideas and resources to create something truly special and came up with something homogenized and kind of stupid instead.

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by Hypnosifl

But what do you mean by "the lead that was established by ... H.R. Giger's designs?" Did he change any elements of the script in response to Giger's design work? If not, do you think Prometheus would have been "better" in any specific ways if Giger was more closely involved in the design work but just as uninvolved in the script?

The original Alien script by O'Bannon and Shusett was written first. O'Bannon came up with the story as a serious version of Dark Star. Shusett came up with the idea of impregnation of the alien in a human host through the facehugger. They both did the screenplay together.

O'Bannon knew Giger from when they both worked on Alejandro Jodorowsky's defunct Dune movie. O'Bannon knew the Alien had to be Giger's design, so when Ridley Scott was brought onboard to direct, O'Bannon shoved Giger's artbook in Scott's hands and Scott agreed that Giger was the one that had to design the Alien and all things related to it in the movie (the derelict spacecraft, the Space Jockey, and all forms of the alien itself: the eggs, the facehugger, the chestburster, and the adult alien creature). Scott originally wanted Giger's Necronom IV painting to be copied exactly for the alien creature, but Giger made some alterations (took away the creature's eyes, changed the tail, and reformed the head to be a bit less phallic). For the most part, Giger designed everything based on his own work and the influence of the script ideas that O'Bannon and Shusset wrote -- he didn't have much input from Scott, who basically agreed to anything Giger designed.

To answer your question on whether I think Prometheus would have been any better had Giger been more closely involved...? Maybe with the alien/deacon design, yeah, but I'm not so sure Giger would be able to go against what Ridley decided as far as the Space Jockey goes. Whose idea was that anyway? Was it something introduced in Damon Lindeloff's script, or was it something Ridley came up with? Doesn't matter. It was a different concept than the way it was introduced in Alien.

As for the Prometheus movie itself... Could that have been saved by more involvement with Giger? HELL NO! I'll repeat what I said earlier: That script was bad and the characters written like a bunch of idiots!

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

I'm kinda agreeing with what you are saying. In ALIEN, he appears to have let each specialist build their component and then he stuck them all together, but in Prometheus he seemed to be following his own scheme a little more this time. The Brundle line just popped into my head when you made your point.

And yes, Chroneneberg's Fly was awesome. One of my favs as well.

When it comes down to it, with Alien, Ridley Scott was brought onboard to steer the ship that was practically already built by O'Bannon, Shusset and Giger, as well as Ron Cobb, Chris Foss, and Moebius (Jean Giraud), along with producers Gordon Carroll, Walter Hill and David Giler...

But with Prometheus not only was Ridley the Captain of the ship, but he took apart the Alien ship and rebuilt it as Prometheus with everyone under his command, and with unfortunate inferior results.

[Oblivion138]

Originally Posted by mar3o

I wasn't getting snippy. I was asking why that mattered. I wasn't aware you were just responding to another person's mention of filming techniques. I didn't know who you were talking to since you didn't address anybody specific. My apologies.

I quoted Early Memphis's post directly. It's not a big deal, but I did most certainly address someone specifically.

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

I used to like Heineken, until I realized how weak of a brew it actually is. It's decent if you want to be able to casually toss back a few without thinking about what you're drinking, but if you're into the taste then there's lots out there that are better.

Heineken is pretty good if you drink it in Holland, but the stuff they export to the US is terrible.

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

Seriously. The designs are not as much of a departure as people claim they are. Once again, Geiger's art is highly open to interpretation because of how integrated machine is with organism.

Agreed. At least they went back to something Lovecraftian with Prometheus. I don't think any of the other "Alien Franchise" filmmakers ever really got that side of what the original film was. Giger, O'Bannon, and Scott were all very influenced by Lovecraft. As for Prometheus, it helps that the narrative plays out like an Alien-related version of At the Mountains of Madness...but the creature designs are very Lovecraftian, as well. And they revive the rape symbolism, as well. Something that was more or less lost in the shuffle after the first film (though Alien 3 at least tried). I mean, for Aliens, they even removed the translucent exoskeleton "dome" from the Alien's head, making it look less phallic. Talk about missing the point!

And I was thrilled, as well, to see that a couple of Giger's Dune designs were used. After a couple of decades, it was about damn time someone used those fantastic designs in some film or other.

[Hypnosifl]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

To answer your question on whether I think Prometheus would have been any better had Giger been more closely involved...? Maybe with the alien/deacon design, yeah, but I'm not so sure Giger would be able to go against what Ridley decided as far as the Space Jockey goes. Whose idea was that anyway? Was it something introduced in Damon Lindeloff's script, or was it something Ridley came up with? Doesn't matter. It was a different concept than the way it was introduced in Alien.

As I already noted this idea was present in Giger's original mural, but the idea of returning to this idea for Prometheus was in the original script by Spaihts, before Lindelof was brought in. From the opening to Spaihts' "Alien Engineers" script:

EXT. LOWLAND PLAIN - DAY THREE FIGURES walk out of the shadow.
They are men - and yet not men. Their skin is snow-white. Their features heavy and classical - as if Rodin’s Thinker had risen from his seat. Their smooth heads are earless and hairless. Their glittering eyes entirely black.
Against the stark land their height is impossible to judge. They are ENGINEERS.

Originally Posted by Darkstream

As for the Prometheus movie itself... Could that have been saved by more involvement with Giger? HELL NO! I'll repeat what I said earlier: That script was bad and the characters written like a bunch of idiots!

OK, so when you said Ridley Scott was better off when he just followed the ideas of Dan O'Bannon and Giger, O'Bannon should really have been the sole focus of your argument no? You don't seem to actually think it would have made a difference if Giger was equally involved but the script was unchanged.

Note that the final Alien movie does actually differ quite a bit from the version by O'Bannon and Shusett which is summarized on this page, the final version makes the origin of the Alien and what happened with the Space Jockey much more mysterious (and there was no android in the original). Not sure if the changes were due to Scott's input or someone else's decision, though.

Originally Posted by Darkstream

When it comes down to it, with Alien, Ridley Scott was brought onboard to steer the ship that was practically already built by O'Bannon, Shusset and Giger, as well as Ron Cobb, Chris Foss, and Moebius (Jean Giraud), along with producers Gordon Carroll, Walter Hill and David Giler...

But with Prometheus not only was Ridley the Captain of the ship, but he took apart the Alien ship and rebuilt it as Prometheus with everyone under his command, and with unfortunate inferior results.

I dunno, I don't really think this anti-Scott argument makes sense unless you think that Scott told Spaihts what to write, or unless you like Spaiht's version significantly better than the final script. If not, then what it really comes down to is not that Scott interfered too much with the writers and artists, but just that you don't like the writers and artists who worked on Prometheus as much as the writers and artists who worked on Alien (which in the case of the artists is pretty understandable since Giger/Moebius/Foss are such major figures in fantasy/sci-fi art).

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by Hypnosifl

As I already noted this idea was present in Giger's original mural, but the idea of returning to this idea for Prometheus was in the original script by Spaihts, before Lindelof was brought in. From the opening to Spaihts' "Alien Engineers" script:


OK, so when you said Ridley Scott was better off when he just followed the ideas of Dan O'Bannon and Giger, O'Bannon should really have been the sole focus of your argument no? You don't seem to actually think it would have made a difference if Giger was equally involved but the script was unchanged.

O'Bannon definitely gets the most focus, yes, but not sole focus -- Giger's design for the Alien (not yet called a Xenomorph) and the Pilot (which was later known as the Space Jockey) were stronger designs and concepts that were later changed for Prometheus. If Giger had been allowed to just use his original designs and maybe just update them a bit, without changing them too much, it might have helped give better consistency between the two movies.

But, yeah, if O'Bannon had been involved with Prometheus, there is no doubt the film would have been better.

Note that the final Alien movie does actually differ quite a bit from the version by O'Bannon and Shusett which is summarized on this page, the final version makes the origin of the Alien and what happened with the Space Jockey much more mysterious (and there was no android in the original). Not sure if the changes were due to Scott's input or someone else's decision, though.

I believe the android is the creation of Producer David Giler, who did some rewrites of O'Bannon's and Shusett's script.

I dunno, I don't really think this anti-Scott argument makes sense unless you think that Scott told Spaihts what to write, or unless you like Spaiht's version significantly better than the final script. If not, then what it really comes down to is not that Scott interfered too much with the writers and artists, but just that you don't like the writers and artists who worked on Prometheus as much as the writers and artists who worked on Alien (which in the case of the artists is pretty understandable since Giger/Moebius/Foss are such major figures in fantasy/sci-fi art).

It's not so much that it's an Anti-Scott argument, but the way I see it is that everything was well established with Alien before Scott came on, and then Scott came in and masterfully storyboarded and orchestrated all the pieces together into a great film. While with Prometheus, it was the opposite with Scott taking the lead -- whether he was involved with the script or not, the changes were still his to command and execute as he saw fit. Maybe he just had a crappy team this time and was too busy focusing on painting a pretty picture and being heady, instead of actually telling a good story with strong characters, regardless of it being consistent with Alien or not.

Originally Posted by Oblivion138

At least they went back to something Lovecraftian with Prometheus. I don't think any of the other "Alien Franchise" filmmakers ever really got that side of what the original film was. Giger, O'Bannon, and Scott were all very influenced by Lovecraft. As for Prometheus, it helps that the narrative plays out like an Alien-related version of At the Mountains of Madness...but the creature designs are very Lovecraftian, as well. And they revive the rape symbolism, as well. Something that was more or less lost in the shuffle after the first film (though Alien 3 at least tried). I mean, for Aliens, they even removed the translucent exoskeleton "dome" from the Alien's head, making it look less phallic. Talk about missing the point!

And I was thrilled, as well, to see that a couple of Giger's Dune designs were used. After a couple of decades, it was about damn time someone used those fantastic designs in some film or other.

I can't argue there -- I agree with all that. Although, Anderson's Alien Vs. Predator deals with some similar Lovecraftian themes, too, as far as the ancient tomb in the Antarctic goes.

[JimDiGriz]

[QUOTE=Oblivion138;8955324]Heineken is pretty good if you drink it in Holland, but the stuff they export to the US is terrible.
QUOTE]

Heineken! F**k that s**t! Pabst Blue Ribbon!!!!

[Lentulus Batiatus]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

It is so obvious that Ridley Scott re-envisioned and revised the concepts and designs of Alien with Prometheus. That's a fact!

So you have links to the articles and videos featuring Scott stating this 'fact'?



Of course you don't.

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus

So you have links to the articles and videos featuring Scott stating this 'fact'?

Yeah, watch Alien and then watch Prometheus. The statement is in the films themselves. If you can't see it, then you should check your head.

Of course you don't.

And I really don't appreciate this snarky remark. Why ask me a question like that, if you're just going to be a dick about it? People like you don't respect anyone else's thoughts, they just like looking for an argument when they've already made up their own mind.

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

And I really don't appreciate this snarky remark. Why ask me a question like that, if you're just going to be a dick about it? People like you don't respect anyone else's thoughts, they just like looking for an argument when they've already made up their own mind.

I guess some people just like to feel better about themselves by making others feel bad.

I think we've been exchanging some interesting points of view in here, but unfortunately somebody always has to resort to insults.

[itsaboutHD]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

O'Bannon definitely gets the most focus, yes, but not sole focus -- Giger's design for the Alien (not yet called a Xenomorph) and the Pilot (which was later known as the Space Jockey) were stronger designs and concepts that were later changed for Prometheus. If Giger had been allowed to just use his original designs and maybe just update them a bit, without changing them too much, it might have helped give better consistency between the two movies.

In the director's cut (not sure about the theatrical) of Alien, there's a scene where Dallas (I think) walks up to the pilot and comments that he "seems to have blown up from the inside". To me, that's consistent with the pilot being a victim of the xenomorph, and that is exactly what Prometheus is about. I don't believe in nature (here on earth) there are any instances of offspring eating their parents, except maybe this, which hardly counts. That scene also removes the perspective that makes the pilot look so gigantic. There at a close up, where he looks to be the same size as the engineer.

You could use that scene to bolster the arguments that those really are bones, I mean, they sure look like them there!

In my opinion, the origin of humans story in Prometheus is a pretty good one. It addresses the "god created man/man created god in his own image", as your persuasion may dictate, in a pretty good way. The script handles the concept of keeping your faith in the face of the evidence poorly, but then again, that script sucks. I mean, really!! Well, except for David's lines. He was the only character that made sense, was well acted, and said something worth listening to. It's almost like Scott wanted to bring back the original characters from Alien, so he made his Prometheus' scientists and pilots look, act and behave like the "factory workers" from the cast in Alien. I think that was a poor choice. But at the end of the day, I really like Prometheus and do my best to ignore the parts I would change. One of these days I might even try and rewrite all the lines I don't like and dub them in

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus

So you have links to the articles and videos featuring Scott stating this 'fact'?

Uh...it's right up there on the screen. Not sure what to tell yah other than to actually watch the movies themselves. Pretty much the last serval pages of this thread have been a debate about these very facts.

[gates70]

Love this movie and I can't wait until the other 2 are done and see how it ties in to Alien!

[Lemmy Lugosi]

Originally Posted by gates70

Love this movie and I can't wait until the other 2 are done and see how it ties in to Alien!

It doesn't!

[Lemmy Lugosi]

Originally Posted by oakhill

this movie had some great bass in it

I didn't see any fish.....!

[Lentulus Batiatus]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

Yeah, watch Alien and then watch Prometheus. The statement is in the films themselves. If you can't see it, then you should check your head.

And I really don't appreciate this snarky remark. Why ask me a question like that, if you're just going to be a dick about it? People like you don't respect anyone else's thoughts, they just like looking for an argument when they've already made up their own mind.

You stated your opinion followed by this comment.

Originally Posted by Darkstream

That's a fact!

People like you don't like to be called out to prove your facts when you know you can't. You just get butt hurt. Funny enough though you have no issue being snarky in your butt hurt reply.

If you want to spout off about facts then back them up. Otherwise it's only your OPINION and getting upset like a little girl because you can't back up your claim's that Ridley Scott did something with anything but your own thoughts makes your further discussion points, well, pointless.

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus

You stated your opinion followed by this comment.


People like you don't like to be called out to prove your facts when you know you can't. You just get butt hurt. Funny enough though you have no issue being snarky in your butt hurt reply.

I was just giving it back to you.

If you want to spout off about facts then back them up. Otherwise it's only your OPINION and getting upset like a little girl because you can't back up your claim's that Ridley Scott did something with anything but your own thoughts makes your further discussion points, well, pointless.

It is not an opinion --- it is a fact! Are you so blind that you cannot see the differences in the designs? Or the concepts? You're one of those dense-minded idiots that refuses to admit that Ridley Scott changed his mind on what he presented in Alien and basically took the ideas in a different direction. He was expanding on something that was never fully realized in Alien, and took a different path than even he expected -- Simple as that!

And the only thing I was upset about was your snarky remark. Other than that, I don't give a crap if you want to go on being ignorant the rest of your life.