Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[jcs913]

Just because a company like Kino and Criterion are releasing a large amount of titles does not mean that they are profitable or 'doing better than ever'. I assume that we do not know their financials, but those labels could also be losing money too. Chasing business by releasing more and discounting sometimes makes matters worse. I like TT and what they brought to the table, but once they started to discount, that pretty much started their imminent demise. I understand completely why they discounted, as they need to recoup those dollars any way possible to be able to license more titles, but that came at a cost unfortunately. Frankly IMO, they have not released many decent titles lately or popular ones that sell well for them either, ie..horror titles...

[klauswhereareyou]

Originally Posted by jcs913

Just because a company like Kino and Criterion are releasing a large amount of titles does not mean that they are profitable or 'doing better than ever'. I assume that we do not know their financials, but those labels could also be losing money too. Chasing business by releasing more and discounting sometimes makes matters worse. I like TT and what they brought to the table, but once they started to discount, that pretty much started their imminent demise. I understand completely why they discounted, as they need to recoup those dollars any way possible to be able to license more titles, but that came at a cost unfortunately. Frankly IMO, they have not released many decent titles lately or popular ones that sell well for them either, ie..horror titles...

I don't think the sales were a bad thing in the beginning (the 3 year anniversary sale??), but now when they're every few months between them and Screen Archives, it leaves little incentive to buy the less popular titles at 29.99 unless you really want them now.

[jcs913]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

I don't think the sales were a bad thing in the beginning (the 3 year anniversary sale??), but now when they're every few months between them and Screen Archives, it leaves little incentive to buy the less popular titles at 29.99 unless you really want them now.

It definitely was not bad for the buyers. For me, it planted the seed that patience was probably going to save me money on titles I did not 'need' right away. I think I stopped pre-ordering years ago, basically after Christine. I remember when the pre-orders were a frenzy. Now, I don't see that. I think a lot of it has to do with the selection of titles being offered, but their price and imminent markdown in the buyers eyes also have to do with it.

[klauswhereareyou]

Originally Posted by jcs913

It definitely was not bad for the buyers. For me, it planted the seed that patience was probably going to save me money on titles I did not 'need' right away. I think I stopped pre-ordering years ago, basically after Christine. I remember when the pre-orders were a frenzy. Now, I don't see that. I think a lot of it has to do with the selection of titles being offered, but their price and imminent markdown in the buyers eyes also have to do with it.

Yeah I think its the selection. They got lucky with a few truly wanted at the time cult classics (Christine, Body Double, Fright Night, The Sinbad films) that ended up selling out and then a few years later either got new TT discs, got put out by the owner companies themselves, or were put out as region free discs elsewhere. Kind of wish they would take more of a chance with comedies..like How about something like Who's Harry Crumb? Instead that'll probably get a #$#$# burnt disc from Sony if it ever makes it out at all. I don't know, maybe they could've pushed harder too to get some of those titles that Sony is now burning on demand (like Neighbors which since they are still putting isolated scores on the disc we could've gotten the rejected and the original score).

[jcs913]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

Yeah I think its the selection. They got lucky with a few truly wanted at the time cult classics (Christine, Body Double, Fright Night, The Sinbad films) that ended up selling out and then a few years later either got new TT discs, got put out by the owner companies themselves, or were put out as region free discs elsewhere. Kind of wish they would take more of a chance with comedies..like How about something like Who's Harry Crumb? Instead that'll probably get a #$#$# burnt disc from Sony if it ever makes it out at all. I don't know, maybe they could've pushed harder too to get some of those titles that Sony is now burning on demand (like Neighbors which since they are still putting isolated scores on the disc we could've gotten the rejected and the original score).

Yeah, even though Baby Boom was a popular title back in the day, I do not see that selling well, but who knows. I just do not see the 'popular' titles from them anymore, which is what sparked interest in all the other stuff from people on the fence. Frankly, like a bunch of other labels too, I think TT is just left with whatever they can get now, which is unfortunate. They did a good job with what they put out most of the time. Many of their new rleases just are not going to sell 500 or so copies at $29.99. As I read someone mention, they should really reduce their output and focus on what will sell
and put effort into those releases. Then once and a while, release that obscure title that I know TT likes to release. IMO, that is how you stay afloat these days in the physical media business, just look at Code Red. Bill and Walt will do a great job on the Italian releases, but they also get to release their beyond obscure stuff too. Seems you need that balance.

[bruceames]

It was a combination of factors. Blu-ray sales peaked three years ago, so everyone's sales has seen a decline. Since TT's model is 3000 units (5000 on some of them), the fixed 3000 unit model gets harder and harder to sustain with each passing year of declining sales. Also when Kino jumped with their classic line, I think it had a big effect and glutted the market even more with both labels offering similar-level titles from the same major studios.

Although they have sales, their prices are never competitive on Amazon. Now that they do have frequent sales that compete with the other labels, the sales are restricted to a few relatively obscure places. So that gives a huge advantage to the other guys.

I hope that the studios wake up and offer them better license deals in this increasingly tough market so they can adjust their model to fewer units or perhaps reduce the number of titles offered each month. Something is better than nothing and all successful businesses need to make adjustments when the market changes. Hopefully they can do so and have renewed success (although obviously at a lower level). Also I think their should be more consistency in future pricing. Right now the sales are so frequent and discounts so steep, that only the biggest fans/supporters will preorder day one. The original model was intended to create a "buy now or miss out", "put our titles in front of your queue because they are limited", sense of urgency. But now it's exactly the opposite, even more so than the other labels they are competing with.

[MassiveMovieBuff]

I'm an Avid TT fan and own around 35-50 of their titles that I'm grateful that they released. The quality of their blu rays are excellent as well. Frankly if it were up to me I would have TT be the only blu ray distributor (other than Criterion). They have less quality issues than most blu ray distributors.

I do have to agree with the titles they've been releasing for quite a while now. There's just not many that grab me like they once did. Maybe its just odds but one OP stated that if they had more stronger titles to balance out the "not so strong ones" (due to the majority of people never hearing about those titles before) then I think they would be in a different position. I'll say it again though. TT's quality on their blu rays are excellent minus one or maybe two very rare misstep. Im always very secure when I buy a TT title knowing I'm getting a quality product. I've also blind bought (which I hardly do and hate doing) quite a few titles from them that I ended up loving. Im curious as to how many others I should be blind buying as well as I'm sure they are great films.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by jcs913

It definitely was not bad for the buyers. For me, it planted the seed that patience was probably going to save me money on titles I did not 'need' right away. I think I stopped pre-ordering years ago, basically after Christine. I remember when the pre-orders were a frenzy. Now, I don't see that. I think a lot of it has to do with the selection of titles being offered, but their price and imminent markdown in the buyers eyes also have to do with it.

The preorders were a frenzy because that was the only time they offered the free autographed copy with qualifying order. Then it got too frenzied and people complained so they started having it on other days (always Wednesdays). Of course when they offered a very popular title it would be very active but never on the level of having a signed copy, which was basically the only form of "sale" they had back then (although that had a couple of annual sales in the later stages when they had the autograph copy on preorder days).

I think that's what made them more unique and what I appreciated more than anything from them (as far as those extra touches are concerned). Of course the liner notes and exclusive commentaries are great too, but I really enjoyed the thrill of scoring a free autographed copy.

[Hoke Moseley]

Anyone else blame StingingVelvet for this news?

[Show spoiler]Just kidding! I don't want to be banned.

[bruceames]

That's another good point. As time goes on, people get more saavy and go region free, so TT gets increased competition from import labels as well, essentially meaning that a smaller pool of movies are exclusive anymore. I always hate to miss out, so when a title that I wouldn't mind having threatens to go OOP, I'll usually bite. But lately I'll check first to see if it's available as an import and if it is, and the quality is just as good, then I'll pass (depending on price). That happened just recently with a title they had, don't remember which one.

[AKORIS]

I think they made a huge mistake having sales so often. In the beginning it was a big deal having a "once a year anniversary sale" and people went crazy getting $30 titles for $20... myself included.

Now we know that if titles sit long enough they go to $19.99, $14.99, and even less than 10 bucks.

I know now that I can pretty much get any title I want for 15 to 20 bucks so I throw the titles I want in a wishlist and pick them off as I can afford them.

I also know that the limited quantity thing isn't much of a threat either... genre titles like Count Yorga Vampire and Scream And Scream Again have not sold out (and I really thought they would). Even the reissues of Rollerball and Thunderbolt and Lightfoot are still easy to get which I also expected to quickly sell out again...

While it's good for us, perhaps they've cheapened their label with all the sales and that, along with physical media in general, has hurt their company...

[belcherman]

Originally Posted by nitin

I say this only semi flippantly, but they should put slipcovers on the first 1500 copies and that will probably solve all of their problems

Put them in a steelbook and they can double the price.

I don't know anything about how their business works, but I was really surprised to see movies that were released just a few months ago included in the sale.

[kaseaver]

May be just my personal bias, but when I noticed The Barefoot Contessa and I Want to Live on the discount list for $19.95 just a couple of months after release, it shows something has really changed for TT. To me these are quality titles for which, in the past, the $30 price would have held up. When TT discounts so early, it indicates 1. TT having financial problems and must discount sooner for cash flow, 2. customers not buying as much even for quality titles. Factor #1 can reinforce #2 as customers refrain from pre-ordering/paying full price to wait for discount. Vicious cycle ensues.

TT should immediately lower price on pre-orders across the board and stop discounting so soon after release.

[MifuneFan]

If they could constantly sell the bulk of their titles at such low prices and get by, they really should just lower the MSRP across the board. That would boost sales on a regular basis. They'd have to have sales at most twice a year, but that's it. I know I'd be more inclined to buy at full price rather than wait for a sale if their full price was $20-25. As it stands, I see little incentive to do that.

[MassiveMovieBuff]

I also agree with the amount of sales they do as well. Not only is it too often but it makes it look like they're struggling to get the titles sold, which is obviously the case. Criterion does the same thing though. It makes people just want to wait for a sale instead of buying them when they come out.

[cakefactory]

Originally Posted by MassiveMovieBuff

I also agree with the amount of sales they do as well. Not only is it too often but it makes it look like they're struggling to get the titles sold, which is obviously the case. Criterion does the same thing though. It makes people just want to wait for a sale instead of buying them when they come out.

I dunno if Criterion suffers as much from the sales, though, as they don't really have them on Amazon very often (I don't think Amazon ever price-matched the last couple of B&N sales), and they also don't have them at any of the in-store locations apart from B&N. I think they get enough customers who just assume they're always expensive and buy them at the ~30 dollar level, while TT only sells at two locations and thus basically all of their customers are aware of the sales.

[MifuneFan]

A lot of people still buy Criterions at the $27 range. And again, Criterion isn't limited by quantity. They could sell 10,000 copies at half off on their way to making profits. TT is stuck with a certain amount they need from the 3,000 or 5,000 copies in order to break even, simply because of the way they structured their royalties with the studios.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

A lot of people still buy Criterions at the $27 range. And again, Criterion isn't limited by quantity. They could sell 10,000 copies at half off on their way to making profits. TT is stuck with a certain amount they need from the 3,000 or 5,000 copies in order to break even, simply because of the way they structured their royalties with the studios.

Yeah, if they can, they really should rethink that business model. I can't think of anyone who likes it and that includes me who considers himself to be a fan of the label. I don't buy that physical media dying is the reason they are not doing well (if indeed that is what's going on here). People are put off by the limited edition model and/or pricing and that's why so many people are happy to wait for the sales. A lot of people who don't like TT are fine purchasing from them when they have titles at 50% or 75% off, maybe even doing so deliberately as a way to stick it to them. It also doesn't help that when TT started they were one of the few (maybe only?) indy labels releasing Fox, Sony and later MGM titles. But then other labels such as Shout, Olive, Kino, Powerhouse started making deals with the same studios and become heroes to people who didn't like that Twilight Time was releasing titles from those studios.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

A lot of people still buy Criterions at the $27 range. And again, Criterion isn't limited by quantity. They could sell 10,000 copies at half off on their way to making profits. TT is stuck with a certain amount they need from the 3,000 or 5,000 copies in order to break even, simply because of the way they structured their royalties with the studios.

The others labels aren't limited by quantity (unless they decide to self impose limits to attract collectors and create an urgency to buy so more sales happen more quickly), but these days I don't think even Criterion sells more than 3000 units on most of their offerings. 3000 these days is a huge number to sell in an increasingly niche market, where the same number of titles (or even more) compete in a declining market. None of the labels are reducing the titles offered per month.

[Professor Echo]

The new label, ClassicFlix, is also tapping into the MGM/UA library for their initial releases and so far I don't believe have indicated they will be limited editions, which makes TT's model look even more like an outmoded gimmick. On the other hand, I'm not sure if ClassicFlix have confirmed that their releases will be pressed-or have they? I do know the press release states they will not have any extras, so TT has somewhat of an advantage over them in that department, even if TT doesn't always excel in that department.

My question is why would a new label start up if the current climate for physical media has such a dire forecast? I don't doubt that it does, but I also personally believe TT should take some responsibility for contributing to their own apparent downfall by establishing a model that was seemingly ill advised and ill informed. Limited edition collectibles of all kinds have been on the down swing for years now and I think TT market research should have reflected that trend and scaled back on what they assumed was going to be the mainstay of their business.

Whatever the consequences of their actions, I'll be sorry to see a player bite the dust, but the news has not dissuaded me in the least toward buying physical media and building a collection that allows me as much free choice and free will in how I spend my media leisure time.