Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[Iamspartacus]

Major Dundee? Repeat: Senta Berger

[cakefactory]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

To you and the more elitist commenters: I did not say I don't like The Wild Bunch. I did not say The Wild Bunch is a bad movie. In fact, if you click the numbers under my stunning picture you will discover I own The Wild Bunch on blu-ray. What I said was, I find it overrated, by which I mean it's not AMAZING to me or a SUPER CLASSIC to me, it's just good. So yes, my question was, would that mean I would completely dislike Dundee or is it worth a shot?

"A little overrated" and no other comment on it at all sure made it sound like you didn't like it, since there's no positive there! But...yeah. As Baheidstu said above, it's a LOT more old-fashioned and clunky than The Wild Bunch, so there's no doubt in my mind you would like it far less. The one "older style" Peckinpah western I'd still suggest you try would be "Ride the High Country," which is rather old fashioned but is so damn well-made and moving you might like it anyway. Major Dundee is for completists only.

If you really like the Leone/Eastwood movies, you're probably going to dislike most American movies, other than the ones Eastwood made, which tend to be both very well-made and deconstructionist. Plus, you already know you like him as a lead, and he's definitely playing around with his image from those films. Unforgiven is his masterpiece, but Outlaw Josey Wales, High Plains Drifter and Pale Rider definitely are worth seeing (in that order of importance).

Peckinpah's Ride the High Country is a good test to see whether you'd be open to more of the American classics, but if you have this "1965ish" barrier, you probably won't. I'd suggest watching a few of the other classics of the Spaghetti Western, like The Great Silence or My Name is Nobody. Most of the good ones, those two included, haven't made it to blu-ray, but the DVDs are fine. "Day of Anger" is alright and has an Arrow release, but inferior to those two and the Leone pics, and I definitely wouldn't suggest blind-buying it given it sounds like you have barely seen any westerns and may just dislike the genre. I'm not very big on it myself, but have liked most of the classics and loved a few of them. Ride the High Country, My Darling Clementine, TGTBATU, The Great Silence and Once Upon a Time in the West are my favorites.

[zeze]

Glad I looked at this site and saw the Count Yorga was getting a UK release. Now I can replace it with another title.

Which 3 do you guys recommend from this list (I'm making my order right now):
Radio Days
Resurrected
10 Rillington Place
At Close Range
Bite the Bullet
Bunny Lake is Missing
Cowboy
Experiment in Terror

[thatguamguy]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

To you and the more elitist commenters: I did not say I don't like The Wild Bunch. I did not say The Wild Bunch is a bad movie. In fact, if you click the numbers under my stunning picture you will discover I own The Wild Bunch on blu-ray. What I said was, I find it overrated, by which I mean it's not AMAZING to me or a SUPER CLASSIC to me, it's just good. So yes, my question was, would that mean I would completely dislike Dundee or is it worth a shot?

I never fully clicked with "Wild Bunch" either, which I'm sure is my failing and all that, but I did enjoy "The Ballad of Cable Hogue". It kind of changed my perspective on Peckinpah to some extent. "Ride the High Country" is really good, but if you don't like pre-'65 westerns, you probably wouldn't like that one; philosophically, it is post-'65, but it looks and feels like an old-fashioned one in terms of camerawork and acting and music and all (the former plays surrprisingly well with the latter, for me). "Cross of Iron" is also a damned good movie. "Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia" is really uber-Peckinpah and I do think it's great, but it's not a particularly fun movie to watch.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by zeze

Glad I looked at this site and saw the Count Yorga was getting a UK release. Now I can replace it with another title.

Which 2 do you guys recommend from this list:
Radio Dogs
Resurrected
10 Rellington Place
At Close Range
Bite the Bullet
Bunny Lake is Missing
Cowboy
Experiment in Terror

With the caveat that I don't know your tastes, my two picks from that list would be Experiment in Terror and Bite the Bullet.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by thatguamguy

I never fully clicked with "Wild Bunch" either, which I'm sure is my failing and all that, but I did enjoy "The Ballad of Cable Hogue". It kind of changed my perspective on Peckinpah to some extent. "Ride the High Country" is really good, but if you don't like pre-'65 westerns, you probably wouldn't like that one; philosophically, it is post-'65, but it looks and feels like an old-fashioned one in terms of camerawork and acting and music and all (the former plays surrprisingly well with the latter, for me). "Cross of Iron" is also a damned good movie. "Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia" is really uber-Peckinpah and I do think it's great, but it's not a particularly fun movie to watch.

No one has mentioned Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid. It's not perfect but it's a cool western with a cool Bob Dylan soundtrack. My second favourite Peckinpah after The Wild Bunch.

[cakefactory]

PG&BTK bored me to tears when I watched it. I'll probably revisit it sometime. I did like Cable Hogue, it was much more gentle. It's too bad they didn't release that whole DVD set on blu-ray, that was a really good set with serious extras.

[zeze]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

With the caveat that I don't know your tastes, my two picks from that list would be Experiment in Terror and Bite the Bullet.

Yeah Experiment in Terror I was really leaning towards getting. Might have to do with the fact that it is almost sold out.

[cakefactory]

Originally Posted by zeze

Yeah Experiment in Terror I was really leaning towards getting. Might have to do with the fact that it is almost sold out.

I would also recommend it based on the fact you have Halloween III as an av and thus must be a horror guy. Experiment in Terror is full of visual flourishes and is a very sinister movie that I think will appeal to most anyone that likes classic horror.

[zeze]

Originally Posted by cakefactory

I would also recommend it based on the fact you have Halloween III as an av and thus must be a horror guy. Experiment in Terror is full of visual flourishes and is a very sinister movie that I think will appeal to most anyone that likes classic horror.

Now I'm really looking forward to watching it.

Its between these 3 for my last one:

10 Rillington Place
Bite the Bullet
At Close Range

I'm leaning towards one of the first 2.

[thatguamguy]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

No one has mentioned Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid. It's not perfect but it's a cool western with a cool Bob Dylan soundtrack. My second favourite Peckinpah after The Wild Bunch.

I've always felt like "Pat Garrett" was compromised in any available version. It's not bad, it just always feels to me like something is missing. But I should give it another shot. For whatever reason, I have always been drawn to his more off-beat movies than the accepted classics.

[Iamspartacus]

I loved Experiment in Terror but didn't care for Bite the Bullet On another note, can anyone recommend Radio Days?

[oildude]

These are the top pre-1965 westerns I have seen, and I recommend them highly (I am sure I will leave a few good ones off the list - this is off the top of my head).

Here's the thing about 1950s and early 1960s Westerns. They turned the genre on its head. There would have been no later Eastwood classics like Unforgiven or The Outlaw Josie Wales, or a receptive audience for Leone and spaghetti westerns of all directorial stripes, if not for the ground-breaking stories, cinematography, levels of graphic violence, social issues, and pushing of the envelope that occurred in the 50s and early 60s. Think of it is as a Western version of the period of classic film noir (they overlapped a great deal).....how could we understand or appreciate the structures of modern noir without loving or at least liking the foundations laid by classics of the late 40s and early 50s? As someone mentioned above, a good film with an engaging and moving story is the same no matter what the era.

We are talking about an era that contains so many great works from directors like Anthony Mann, John Ford, Fred Zinnemann, George Stevens, Sam Peckinpah, Delmer Daves, John Sturges, Howard Hawks, Budd Boetticher, and others. Who do you think Eastwood and Leone looked to for inspiration?

Man of the West
Ride the High Country
The Man from Laramie
One-Eyed Jacks
The Unforgiven (the outstanding 1960 film starring Burt Lancaster and Audrey Hepburn)
3:10 from Yuma (the original starring Glenn Ford and Van Heflin)
Bad Day at Black Rock
The Ox-Bow Incident
The Searchers
The Big Country
Giant
The Misfits
High Noon
Shane
Bend of the River
Broken Arrow
The Magnificent Seven
Rio Bravo
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
The Far Country
The Naked Spur
Hud
Forty Guns
Johnny Guitar
Broken Lance
The Horse Soldiers
Rio Grande
Hondo

And don't forget real gems from the late 1940s. John Ford's magnificent and exceptional Cavalry Trilogy (Fort Apache, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, Rio Grande) and Howard Hawk's Red River (a great, great film, not just a great western). I highly recommend Fort Apache and Red River to anyone who has a preconceived notion against older Westerns.

[cakefactory]

Radio Days is pretty good. It's very nostalgic and isn't all that funny, but it's a very "FUN" movie, if that makes sense. I'd say if you like Woody Allen and you like "Matinee" or "A Christmas Story" or any of those other kinds of nostalgia comedies that are as much about the time period as the characters that you should give it a shot. It's a little bit flat in the plot department, but has a lot of good material in it.

[hoytereden]

Originally Posted by jetthead

Call me elitist if you want to, but I have to ask: What's the deal with not liking the pre-'60s westerns? Ignoring the great westerns of the '40s and '50s means missing out on all of John Ford's and Howard Hawks' films. We're talking about some of the greatest westerns ever filmed. A great movie is a great movie regardless of when it was filmed.

A Hawks' film that rarely comes up in discussions is The Big Sky. It's more of a Trader and Trapper film than a traditional Western but it's a solid film that unfortunately got its running time pared down a long time ago.

[hoytereden]

Originally Posted by oildude

These are the top pre-1965 westerns I have seen, and I recommend them highly (I am sure I will leave a few good ones off the list - this is off the top of my head).

Here's the thing about 1950s and early 1960s Westerns. They turned the genre on its head. There would have been no later Eastwood classics like Unforgiven or The Outlaw Josie Wales, or a receptive audience for Leone and spaghetti westerns of all directorial stripes, if not for the ground-breaking stories, cinematography, levels of graphic violence, social issues, and pushing of the envelope that occurred in the 50s and early 60s. Think of it is as a Western version of the period of classic film noir (they overlapped a great deal).....how could we understand or appreciate the structures of modern noir without loving or at least liking the foundations laid by classics of the late 40s and early 50s? As someone mentioned above, a good film with an engaging and moving story is the same no matter what the era.

We are talking about an era that contains so many great works from directors like Anthony Mann, John Ford, Fred Zinnemann, George Stevens, Sam Peckinpah, Delmer Daves, John Sturges, Howard Hawks, Budd Boetticher, and others. Who do you think Eastwood and Leone looked to for inspiration?

Man of the West
Ride the High Country
The Man from Laramie
One-Eyed Jacks
The Unforgiven (the outstanding 1960 film starring Burt Lancaster and Audrey Hepburn)
3:10 from Yuma (the original starring Glenn Ford and Van Heflin)
Bad Day at Black Rock
The Ox-Bow Incident
The Searchers
The Big Country
Giant
High Noon
Shane
Bend of the River
Broken Arrow
The Magnificent Seven
Rio Bravo
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
The Far Country
The Naked Spur
Hud
Forty Guns
Johnny Guitar
Broken Lance
The Horse Soldiers
Rio Grande
Hondo

And don't forget real gems from the late 1940s. John Ford's magnificent and exceptional Cavalry Trilogy (Fort Apache, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, Rio Grande) and Howard Hawk's Red River (a great, great film, not just a great western). I highly recommend Fort Apache and Red River to anyone who has a preconceived notion against older Westerns.

I would also add The Gunfighter and Winchester '73 and an outstanding Western from the '40s-The Westerner.

[oildude]

Originally Posted by hoytereden

I would also add The Gunfighter and Winchester '73 and an outstanding Western from the '40s-The Westerner.

These are in my sights but not on my list since I have never seen them.

[hoytereden]

Originally Posted by oildude

These are in my sights but not on my list since I have never seen them.

You're in for a treat. I was pretty much weaned on Westerns. Not only were the movies being shown on tv but series like Gunsmoke and Bonanza were ratings leaders and Warner Brothers had a whole factory churning out series like Cheyenne, Sugerfoot, Bronco, etc. In addition to traditional series like The Lone Ranger and The Cisco Kid there'd occasionally be something different like Have Gun Will Travel. Westerns were everywhere!

I just saw a promo that TCM will be showing 101 Westerns in July. Sweet!

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by jetthead

Call me elitist if you want to, but I have to ask: What's the deal with not liking the pre-'60s westerns? Ignoring the great westerns of the '40s and '50s means missing out on all of John Ford's and Howard Hawks' films. We're talking about some of the greatest westerns ever filmed. A great movie is a great movie regardless of when it was filmed.

If you love all eras from the 1920's silent films to the latest 2016 release then that's really cool. I'm not being sarcastic, my hat is taken off to you. I think the vast majority of people are not like that though, and I know for myself I have never been able to claim that. In general I find movies made after 1995 or so too quickly edited, too full of CGI and too flat and digital in appearance. In general I find movies made before the 60's to feel stiff, like theater plays, not having the cinematic flair, music use, performances or writing that makes me love cinema. The 60's is a transitional era where I have a very hard time predicting if I will like something or not.

There are of course many exceptions. There are modern films I like enough to ignore my issues with them. There are 50's and lower movies I like enough to ignore my issues with them. North by Northwest is one of my favorite movies, hence the avatar, but it feels like almost no other 50's movie I have ever seen. I'm not AGAINST 50's movies, and I have watched many, and many more from the 40's and 30's. I've seen every Hitchcock movie pretty much, I liked the Thin Man series a lot. I just typically don't love the styles from back then or today, and love the styles from roughly 70's-90's, so I concentrate on what I love. That seems completely logical and rational to me.

Originally Posted by cakefactory

If you really like the Leone/Eastwood movies, you're probably going to dislike most American movies, other than the ones Eastwood made, which tend to be both very well-made and deconstructionist. Plus, you already know you like him as a lead, and he's definitely playing around with his image from those films. Unforgiven is his masterpiece, but Outlaw Josey Wales, High Plains Drifter and Pale Rider definitely are worth seeing (in that order of importance).

Yeah I own all those. Pale Rider ain't that great but the rest are masterpieces. This is why I struggle with the Western genre though (like pre-80's horror). I love the Eastwood movies and Wild Bunch/Once Upon a Time, but everything else seems to leave me cold. I guess maybe I just have a very limited interest in the genre. I'll keep your tips in mind though.

[docc]

Originally Posted by Iamspartacus

On another note, can anyone recommend Radio Days?

Radio Days is prime Woody Allen, no real plot but more episodic, made up of very clever and funny vignettes many with a Jewish humor slant, perfectly realized 1940's era sets, costumes and music. One of his best, highly recommended.