Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[Al_The_Strange]

Originally Posted by michaeljoo

1. What is TT? They seem to publish very limited runs of more classic titles that don't seem to have a wide release elsewhere but at a hefty price tag?

Just like you said, they're a distributor that puts films (mostly cult films) on limited runs for a higher price. There's usually 3,000 - 5,000 copies of a given movie printed. You purchase them through TT or Screen Archives Entertainment's websites.

Originally Posted by michaeljoo

2. Are they like Criterion in terms of the quality of the releases or the features provided? I mean, are they a company that tries to publish classic titles that aren't available widely or elsewhere and does a high quality restoration and provides unique extra features while doing so, and thus justifying paying the higher prices?

I'd say no, but TT is no slouch either. Most TT films I've seen look and sound great. Just about all of them will have isolated music score tracks (a feature I don't usually see on other Blu-Rays). As far as actual extras go, it varies from movie to movie--some will have a good heaping, others are barebones.

Some older titles (like the first run of Journey to the Center of the Earth) may show a lot of softness (possibly DNR) in their video quality, but I think they wisened up a bit (hence the 4K remaster and rerelease of the same title). I've personally been very happy with the quality of films like Christine, Vampires, The Blob, Enemy Mine, Zardoz, Rollerball, and various others. I'm pretty happy with their track record, especially since most titles aren't being sold elsewhere.

Originally Posted by michaeljoo

3. Related to the above, is there any difference between the TT releases and other releases of the same title? For example, I was looking at Journey to the Center of the Earth (1959). TT version sold out and only available through 3rd party sellers for a lot higher. I looked on BN and they have an Australian Import version for like $18 list price. Is there a reason (like those cited above) why I would pay for the TT version (if I could even get one)? Whenever I can, if there is a CC version and a non-CC version of a title, I will usually get the CC version, even if I already have the non-CC version. Is this the sort of thing that typically holds true for TT releases, that they are usually superior or offer something of value (better quality, additional features, etc...) over non-TT releases?

Will vary from movie to movie. Importing might save you money, but you will have to make sure you can play an imported title (I know Eureka from the UK put out some like Enemy Mine, but I think that one's Region-B). There's also no guarantee that the imported version will look/sound better or have the same extras as TT.

If I understand this right (and somebody can correct me if I'm wrong), the thing about TT is that studios are licensing titles to them for a set period of time (3 years) of exclusivity. There should be no other domestic distributors for the same title anywhere, unless the terms ran out and TT didn't renew them. Christine can be bought nice and cheap from Sony now, but some years ago the TT was the only edition and it sure was pricey. But what are the odds that a studio will turn from TT to CC when the three years are up?

I personally don't expect TT titles to be available elsewhere anytime soon. To me, they're here today and gone tomorrow.

Originally Posted by michaeljoo

4. Why such limited print runs? And for those that sell out, do they regularly do future runs for popular sold out titles? In that sense, is it like the Disney vault in that after a limit run sells out (not they are "vaulting a title" but just that there is no more inventory) that after a number of years they typically/sometimes do another run? I've noticed that some titles seem to have been released more than once through TT, but didn't know if this was a typical thing, that if you missed a title that if you wait long enough that it will likely have another release in the future, especially if it was a good seller? For example, right off the bat, I would have been interested in buying some of those Verne titles, like Journey to the Center of the Earth and Mysterious Island, but those are now long gone.

Less copies lets them increase the price for us serious collectors, who will pay more for a movie they may not find as easily elsewhere.

Even though they've rereleased some movies lately, it's not like the Disney vault where they'll hide it and rerelease it years later. If anything, a TT title will either become OOP and unavailable indefinitely, or its rights go back to the studios and they may release it in another way.

Originally Posted by michaeljoo

5. What's the best strategy to buying these at the best prices? It seems you have to pay a premium for these titles. Not necessarily in that the list prices are all that unusual, but that maybe they don't go on sale that often or by that much, especially if they have such limited runs and may sell out pretty quickly. And they don't seem to be available through many retailers where you might be able to catch these on sale or with a coupon/discount. What are considered good prices/deals on TT titles?

Hold out for sales on TT and Screen Archives Entertainment. That's all I know. Could also trade with other forum members, that helped me with a couple.

Originally Posted by michaeljoo

6. Does anyone know when the next sale is likely to be and what are the typical terms of their sales (discount levels, free shipping, etc...)? Now that I've discovered this, I'm eyeing a few titles already, but the whole very limited run thing is making me nervous.

No idea. But if you're worried about titles going OOP, better watch their webpage and FB page for low quantity alerts.

Originally Posted by michaeljoo

Hopefully this doesn't turn into another CC-like collecting habit. That would not be good for the wallet, at least CC has the BN sales.

It could, lol. I got into TT movies for the same fears you did--that this would be the only way to get certain movies, and they had to be bought fast before they vanish. The fear might be what keeps them in business. But then, I'm pretty happy to own their movies when they're not made available elsewhere (especially their sci-fi selection, which rounds off my collection nicely).

I've been buying new releases as they come out, if for no other reason than to make sure I don't miss out (Panic Room, whenever it comes, will probably sell out in hours). I've blind-bought some during TT sales (about $20 or less per movie, whenever they happen). It can become a Criterion-esque habit, but CC still has the edge for their extras, packaging, and quality. But I wouldn't expect TT and CC to cross over.

I say, if you see a specific movie now that you want, buy it when the next sale comes (or, if it's on a low quantity alert, buy it now and enjoy).

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by michaeljoo

Wow, thanks for all the responses, baheidstu, that was super helpful!

Yes, I was looking through the Dead Deals section and realized that I just missed a sale for the $10 off per title.

And one of the titles I wanted (Mysterious Island Encore Edition) was available during the sale and now appears to be sold out.

Hopefully the owners will do more runs of popular sold out titles in the future. I understand that collectors might not be happy (I've sold some OOP titles at higher OOP prices before too), but even Disney releases titles from their vault every so often so that people have a chance to get those titles again eventually. I can understand limited print runs because they are a smaller shop and have to pay for all licensing fees up front. If a title doesn't sell well (especially if many of their titles are not mainstream popular), I can understand not wanting to get stuck with excess inventory that you've paid for up front that doesn't move. But if a title sells really well and sells out fairly quickly and they anticipate that there is still more demand, why not plan another run, if not right away, at least a little while later? I mean, what's the point, just to make limited collector's items so that collectors' can retain higher values on their limited copies? It's not like the discs themselves are original works of art. If they know they will likely sell and wouldn't it be better to make titles more accessible to others who want it?

Thanks for the help!

I know right? But you know what the internet is like, a few whiners waving their torches and pitchforks troll them because the "limited edition" they purchased is now "not so limited" so to appease them instead of the quiet masses who are happy for a second opportunity to buy a title they missed out on, they capitulate. However, I've found that the owners of TT tend to get a bit grouchy at people who bug them and sometimes make knee-jerk comments, so I'm hoping that their statement that they wouldn't do any more re-releases was just that and that they will reconsider their stance for the right title(s).

[thatguamguy]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

(Panic Room, whenever it comes, will probably sell out in hours).

Good call, I hadn't even thought about that. Maybe not hours, but it'll be sold out before it's released.

[CraigThom]

Originally Posted by michaeljoo

But I guess my point is, especially since they are not doing it to drum up manufactured demand as Disney is, if a title was really popular and they anticipate that it would still sell well if they did another run, why not try to license it again and do another run a little later?

Even from a business perspective that seems to make sense, that if they make more and the product will likely sell that they do so. Unless part of the reason these titles sell out is precisely because of the fear/hope that they will never have another release run by TT and so also have a somewhat artificial demand factored in. (Heck, I'm even now contemplating putting in an order soon and paying full price instead of just waiting for the next sale in case some of the titles I'm eyeing sell out in the meantime. And I'm usually a price hawk, usually willing to wait a long time to get the best prices and deals).

It makes sense to me, but check this thread for complaints about it. A lot of people feel "betrayed" by reissues and accuse Twilight Time of lying.

[thatguamguy]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

I know right? But you know what the internet is like, a few whiners waving their torches and pitchforks troll them because the "limited edition" they purchased is now "not so limited" so to appease them instead of the quiet masses who are happy for a second opportunity to buy a title they missed out on, they capitulate.

I think the problem with building a business around exclusivity and limited time availability is that you are going to attract buyers for whom exclusivity and limited time availability are part of what they are paying for.

There was a point when Twilight Time could announce "we're almost out of stock" on a title and it would then sell out within a week, because people would jump on the bandwagon of buying it before it went out of print. If they then put it back in print, I can understand why those purchasers would feel that the sale was made under false pretenses.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by thatguamguy

I think the problem with building a business around exclusivity and limited time availability is that you are going to attract buyers for whom exclusivity and limited time availability are part of what they are paying for.

There was a point when Twilight Time could announce "we're almost out of stock" on a title and it would then sell out within a week, because people would jump on the bandwagon of buying it before it went out of print. If they then put it back in print, I can understand why those purchasers would feel that the sale was made under false pretenses.

If anybody is buying a blu-ray for any reason other than for someone to open it up and actually watch the movie, then I really don't care how upset they would get by re-releases. Each sealed copy they keep tucked away for "collector's purposes" is one less copy that an actual fan of the film is missing out on watching.

[michaeljoo]

Thanks, Al_The_Strange for your responses as well!

Glad to see so many helpful folks in this thread! Everyones responses to my queries really help me to get a sense of what's going on with TT quickly without having to read through 22K+ posts to get up to speed on (what is probably to most here) basic info.

Michael

[belcherman]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

I've been buying new releases as they come out, if for no other reason than to make sure I don't miss out (Panic Room, whenever it comes, will probably sell out in hours).

Is it for sure that Twilight Time will be releasing Panic Room? That seems like a title that Sony would want to release themselves.

[schlock]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

If anybody is buying a blu-ray for any reason other than for someone to open it up and actually watch the movie, then I really don't care how upset they would get by re-releases. Each sealed copy they keep tucked away for "collector's purposes" is one less copy that an actual fan of the film is missing out on watching.

Agreed, but I don't think it's just about some people being upset over the reissues. I think it also took any urgency out of having to buy any of their titles right away. If it's a slow seller, you can buy it whenever. If it's a super-popular title that may sell out instantly, maybe just wait for the inevitable reissue, that sometimes has a better transfer and more extras. Customers aren't the ones who asked for a limited edition model. TT created it. Anyway, reissues are supposedly done, for now, so I guess urgency is back!

[Al_The_Strange]

Originally Posted by belcherman

Is it for sure that Twilight Time will be releasing Panic Room? That seems like a title that Sony would want to release themselves.

No official announcement or news yet. Searching the thread, the most concrete indication was...

Originally Posted by Brad1963

I just noticed on Facebook that Nick Redman is looking into obtaining Panic Room. So it looks like maybe the Mill Creek titles released only on DVD could be up for grabs for Blu ray, as with The Last Detail.

I agree it's odd that Sony held back on this one for so long, especially since the DVD was released in at least a few editions. But it seems to me that Sony hasn't really been all that active in catalog Blu-Ray releases of late. This wouldn't be the first time they licensed something to TT, so I think it fits.

[CraigThom]

Originally Posted by belcherman

Is it for sure that Twilight Time will be releasing Panic Room? That seems like a title that Sony would want to release themselves.

Here is their release schedule (all of it, from the beginning). Nothing through 11 October.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by belcherman

Is it for sure that Twilight Time will be releasing Panic Room? That seems like a title that Sony would want to release themselves.

They indicated on Facebook that they will be releasing it and that they are waiting to be provided a new 4K restoration from Sony. This was quite a while ago mind you, so it's possible that things have changed.

[Brad1963]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

They indicated on Facebook that they will be releasing it and that they are waiting to be provided a new 4K restoration from Sony. This was quite a while ago mind you, so it's possible that things have changed.

The latest from FB a couple days ago is they are still waiting for the 4k remaster.

[michaeljoo]

Originally Posted by CraigThom

It makes sense to me, but check this thread for complaints about it. A lot of people feel "betrayed" by reissues and accuse Twilight Time of lying.

Originally Posted by thatguamguy

I think the problem with building a business around exclusivity and limited time availability is that you are going to attract buyers for whom exclusivity and limited time availability are part of what they are paying for.

There was a point when Twilight Time could announce "we're almost out of stock" on a title and it would then sell out within a week, because people would jump on the bandwagon of buying it before it went out of print. If they then put it back in print, I can understand why those purchasers would feel that the sale was made under false pretenses.

Originally Posted by baheidstu

If anybody is buying a blu-ray for any reason other than for someone to open it up and actually watch the movie, then I really don't care how upset they would get by re-releases. Each sealed copy they keep tucked away for "collector's purposes" is one less copy that an actual fan of the film is missing out on watching.

I do understand the collector's argument generally speaking. I'm basically a collector. I collect all sorts of stuff, but mainly for my own use. Occasionally I'll buy extra copies of some things (mainly Disney titles) for the purpose of local resale if I can get a really good deal on something (like in the hey day of the Toys R Us pre-order promos, which, alas, are no more). But usually I'm collecting things, including collectible versions of things, for myself.

I guess I can see this limited supply argument being made more for what I would consider to be true "collectible" items (let's call these "Collectibles" with a big C), not simply items that can be collected (which could be just about anything, I could have a collection of belly button lint, I suppose) (let's call these "collectibles" with a little c), but of things that have some inherently unique or limited aspect to them (for example, original artwork, autographed copies, etc...), or offer some exclusive, enhanced value distinguished from and beyond a basic version of the same thing (like Ultimate Collector's Editions, or even Steelbook or Digi-book packaging exclusives, or Lexus vs. Toyota, etc...).

The former is inherently limited by its nature. The latter is usually an exclusive version of something that has added value at a premium price. But there is something added actually there (e.g. swag, extra features, enhanced packaging, etc...). It's not for everyone, but for those that want it, they can pay a premium. For those who don't, there is still usually a "regular" version that can be purchased at a lower cost, without the premium.

I guess why I find the TT releases, from what I've gathered so far, a bit odd is that they seem to be neither.

They aren't really by nature inherently limited (unless you consider the licensing agreement to be of a limited nature, but one can suppose that is an artificial limitation assuming licensing agreements can potentially be renewed), not the way original artwork might be, because the artist will only make so many, especially if they're dead.

And from what people have posted, it doesn't seem like they necessarily offer much in the way of enhanced value, other than the mere fact that they are available. I know it depends on the title, but it seems like TT is not for the most part doing their own (improved) restorations of these titles, or adding lots of their own unique content, the way Criterion does. From what people have posted, it sounds like some of these TT releases can sometimes be downright barebones. The big thing, the main "enhanced" value, is simply that the titles are being released and available to purchase at all. And often it seems there are no other buying options available either.

In that sense, I could see the argument about doing limited runs and not making more afterwards being applied more to Criterion titles, especially when there are other releases of the same title available at the time. CC versions would be like the premium versions at premium prices, "Collectibles" because they offer something above and beyond the regular versions, and the regular versions would be available for anyone who didn't want to pay the premium but just wanted access to the movie itself.

To me, I can understand the business end, that they might only want to do limited runs if they are paying for all the licensing fees up front and don't want to get stuck with unsold inventory. But that seems to me the main basis of the "LIMITED" runs here, not because it is inherently limited in nature or because it represents some kind of enhanced Collectible value. But with popular titles that they can anticipate have enough demand to sustain selling though another run, I don't see why they wouldn't do so even after waiting a little while. If they waited some time between runs, it could probably help maintain some of that artificially enhanced demand (maybe not at quite as high levels compared to if there were no re-runs, but still to some extent), but still also allow those who missed out to still access the titles at some point. I realize these are not Disney titles, so too many re-releases might have a greater impact on demand, but still.

From a business perspective if doing very limited runs and not doing re-releases ever is what is need to fuel demand and sell through their inventory, and without that fear factor they wouldn't be able to sell through their inventory (because people see the high prices and think they can just wait for the next sale or put off the purchase for while, and keep putting it off, and maybe never get around to it), I guess I can see why they would do this too. Obviously, if they think or know they won't be able to sell through their inventory, at their desired prices, without that fear factor, and it's the only way they know to make their business work, I may not like it (says the extreme bargain hunter), but I can't really fault them for it. They have to make a living too. But if they could sell through their inventory and they anticipate that there would be enough demand for another run down the road, it doesn't make sense to me, just from a purely business perspective, why they wouldn't do at least occasional re-runs. Never is a long time.

To me, it's particularly a shame since these titles seems to be classic films that aren't really available elsewhere easily or at all. I didn't even know some of these titles existed because they're not really high visibility, but now that I know they exist, I would like to see (and own, since I'm a collector, little c) them, and also show some to my kids. But I may not be able to, at least not without paying a hefty upcharge on the private market. Don't get me wrong, I love popcorn flicks as much as the next person, but I guess I'm of the opinion that making older/lesser known classics and gems more easily available before they're forgotten by the general audience at large is a good thing.

[michaeljoo]

BTW, where does one go to find out or get notifications on which titles are in danger of selling out.

I'd like to try to hold out until their next sale, but given their current model, I don't want to risk not getting something at all if I wait too long.

Thanks.

[thatguamguy]

Originally Posted by michaeljoo

BTW, where does one go to find out or get notifications on which titles are in danger of selling out.

I'd like to try to hold out until their next sale, but given their current model, I don't want to risk not getting something at all if I wait too long.

Thanks.

TT.com has a "Going Fast" tab or something like that; it's just Vampires, which has been there for at least six months. SAE generally issues info on their Facebook page I think?, but honestly I just check the first page here, it seems to be kept pretty well up-to-date.

[belcherman]

Originally Posted by michaeljoo

To me, it's particularly a shame since these titles seems to be classic films that aren't really available elsewhere easily or at all. I didn't even know some of these titles existed because they're not really high visibility, but now that I know they exist, I would like to see (and own, since I'm a collector, little c) them, and also show some to my kids. But I may not be able to, at least not without paying a hefty upcharge on the private market. Don't get me wrong, I love popcorn flicks as much as the next person, but I guess I'm of the opinion that making older/lesser known classics and gems more easily available before they're forgotten by the general audience at large is a good thing.

From what I understand, Twilight Time's license allows them a run of 3000 (sometimes 5000) discs with an exclusivity period of three years. In the past, they've gone back and licensed films again, but mostly not. Hypothetically, once that three year period is up, another label could license the same film and release their own edition. I'm not aware of a single instance where that has happened, but it could.

[michaeljoo]

Originally Posted by thatguamguy

TT.com has a "Going Fast" tab or something like that; it's just Vampires, which has been there for at least six months. SAE generally issues info on their Facebook page I think?, but honestly I just check the first page here, it seems to be kept pretty well up-to-date.

Thanks, I saw that but only saw the Vampires in there, so I thought there must be another list somewhere else.

Now, is that just for TT or also SAE?

I'm not sure what the relationship there is, if TT just sells things through SAE, including some older stuff that they no longer carry themselves.

When there is a "Going Fast" alert, does that mean it's in low quantities only at TT, or also at SAE? Do they have the same or different inventories?

Also, some people seem to post actual inventory numbers. How do they get that info? The Going Fast page doesn't display an actual inventory number.

[oildude]

Originally Posted by michaeljoo

BTW, where does one go to find out or get notifications on which titles are in danger of selling out.

I'd like to try to hold out until their next sale, but given their current model, I don't want to risk not getting something at all if I wait too long.

Thanks.

You say you looked at the first post of this thread. I suggest taking a closer look.

[thatguamguy]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

If anybody is buying a blu-ray for any reason other than for someone to open it up and actually watch the movie, then I really don't care how upset they would get by re-releases. Each sealed copy they keep tucked away for "collector's purposes" is one less copy that an actual fan of the film is missing out on watching.

Listen, I don't care about them either, but by building their business model around the limited nature of the releases, TT left themselves open to having to continue to appeal to people who care about limited releases and their sudden whims.

As for speculators -- which isn't really what I was talking about, but I would grant you there is some overlap -- I think you could just as easily say that the extra sales speculators provide are important to Twilight Time's business model. My understanding is that they need to sell half of their print run before they are in profit. With the immediately out of print stuff, obviously that isn't a problem, but most of their titles seem to be kind of slow. An extra 50-100 sales could tip a release into profit. So I can completely understand why they feel the need to listen to that annoying minority -- because that annoying minority is key to their business.

Let me put it this way; if they annoy 20 people regarding one title, it's still worth satisfying the 1 person complaining if that person buys 25 titles from them over time.