Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[klauswhereareyou]

I wonder if there is an added cost to having the isolated scores on their discs? Out of the 67 Twilight Time discs I own, I've probably only listened to maybe 4-5 of the isolated scores.

[bruceames]

The model worked before because 3000 seemed like a low number, but the downside is that it shows your hand. We all think Criterion, Kino and the others are doing just fine because they are releasing the same number of titles as before and charging the same prices. But it's likely if not certain they reducing the print run to meet estimated demand, so they end up selling fewer titles anyway. Except that they don't have to have so many sales because they aren't tied to a fixed 3000 unit model that is outdated by now.

I think the LE model is fine as it attracts more collectors (which is what they wanted from the start obviously), many who hope the disc will retain a higher collector's value than the norm. But 3000 is just too high, I think they can continue to do just fine if they reduce it to 1500 like they were talking about...as long as they can get a appropriately reduced licensing deal from the studios they are dealing with. I don't see why not if the other labels have the same market constraints. I don't see why they would charge TT higher prices, with or without LE runs.

[MifuneFan]

The kind of titles being released are certainly a factor too. Criterion, for the most part, are putting out stuff that are in much higher demand than what TT are doing. Rarely do I see a TT title I want these days. That's not to say some don't, but not enough willing to pay premium for them.

TT need to focus on getting some really popular stuff again. Panic Room, The Seventh Sign, and so forth. They haven't had a fast sellout in ages. They said themselves their business model relies on those types of releases. I also think it's pretty short sighted for them to quit encore releases because a few people didn't like it. There's clearly demand there for many, so they should just keep doing it.

[mja345]

TT could easily do runs of 1,500. Scorpion is releasing "Saint Jack" this month with a run of 1,500 copies. "Saint Jack" is a film very similar to most of the films TT releases. Scorpion released "Short Eyes" in September of 2014 on a run of 1,500 copies and it still hasn't sold out. "Short Eyes" is another film in the same mold as many of TT's releases.

[mja345]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

The kind of titles being released are certainly a factor too. Criterion, for the most part, are putting out stuff that are in much higher demand than what TT are doing. Rarely do I see a TT title I want these days. That's not to say some don't, but not enough willing to pay premium for them.

TT need to focus on getting some really popular stuff again. Panic Room, The Seventh Sign, and so forth. They haven't had a fast sellout in ages. They said themselves their business model relies on those types of releases. I also think it's pretty short sighted for them to quit encore releases because a few people didn't like it. There's clearly demand there for many, so they should just keep doing it.

Criterion puts out quite a few obscurities, but balances it out with enormous titles like "The Before Trilogy", "Boyhood", "Punch Drunk Love", "Inside Llewyn Davis", "Dr. Strangelove", the Wes Anderson shit, that people who aren't even Criterion fans will buy eventually.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by bruceames

The model worked before because 3000 seemed like a low number, but the downside is that it shows your hand. We all think Criterion, Kino and the others are doing just fine because they are releasing the same number of titles as before and charging the same prices. But it's likely if not certain they reducing the print run to meet estimated demand, so they end up selling fewer titles anyway. Except that they don't have to have so many sales because they aren't tied to a fixed 3000 unit model that is outdated by now.

I think the LE model is fine as it attracts more collectors (which is what they wanted from the start obviously), many who hope the disc will retain a higher collector's value than the norm. But 3000 is just too high, I think they can continue to do just fine if they reduce it to 1500 like they were talking about...as long as they can get a appropriately reduced licensing deal from the studios they are dealing with. I don't see why not if the other labels have the same market constraints. I don't see why they would charge TT higher prices, with or without LE runs.

I would only be okay with them reducing print runs to 1500 if, and this is a big IF, they went back to re-releasing titles and/or dumped the whole limited availability thing. Again, one of the biggest factors a lot of people hate is lack of availability. Whether it's 1500 or 3000 or 5000, people hate the idea that once a release is sold out that it's no longer available and they have to go the eBay / scalper route. Not everyone has the time and resources to buy every new release that comes down the pike, and sometimes certain titles have to sit on the back burner. I have several titles on my Amazon wishlist that I pick away at when I can. One of the biggest annoyances I had was when they said they were not doing encore editions anymore because people complained. I can only imagine that was the type of people who bought their product for investment purposes, in which case I say screw those guys. I want as many movie fans as possible to be able to have an opportunity to own a movie on blu-ray and not feel pressured into buying right now out of fear of missing out. I know of people who have purchased two copies of several TT releases simply out of fear that if one copy got damaged or something that they would never be able to replace it, so of course that means another potential viewer losing out on obtaining a copy.

From the very start, that whole aspect of their business model has stoked nothing but ill will from so many people.

[klauswhereareyou]

I think it helps too when a label gets identified with the films of certain talent. When I think of Criterion I think of Kurosawa, Altman, Bergman, etc.. When I think of Twilight Time I think of....Charles Bronson...which is not a knock on him because I've gotten a lot of their Bronson stuff, but you see where I'm going with that.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

I would only be okay with them reducing print runs to 1500 if, and this is a big IF, they went back to re-releasing titles and/or dumped the whole limited availability thing. Again, one of the biggest factors a lot of people hate is lack of availability. Whether it's 1500 or 3000 or 5000, people hate the idea that once a release is sold out that it's no longer available and they have to go the eBay / scalper route. Not everyone has the time and resources to buy every new release that comes down the pike, and sometimes certain titles have to sit on the back burner. I have several titles on my Amazon wishlist that I pick away at when I can. One of the biggest annoyances I had was when they said they were not doing encore editions anymore because people complained. I can only imagine that was the type of people who bought their product for investment purposes, in which case I say screw those guys. I want as many movie fans as possible to be able to have an opportunity to own a movie on blu-ray and not feel pressured into buying right now out of fear of missing out. I know of people who have purchased two copies of several TT releases simply out of fear that if one copy got damaged or something that they would never be able to replace it, so of course that means another potential viewer losing out on obtaining a copy.

From the very start, that whole aspect of their business model has stoked nothing but ill will from so many people.

Well you can't have it both ways. By virtue of having a LE model, they are targeting the collector over a casual Amazon customer. A collector is more likely to buy if they know it's LE and it also creates a lot of early buying, but of course the downside is that once it's gone it's gone. TT's limited edition model was a big reason behind their success. You have to choose your market and they chose theirs from the beginning. But the weight of having 15000 copies to sell every month became too much and the resulting vicious cycle of sales has completely destroyed the original intent of their model.

I'll be the first to admit that I bought many movies from them because they are "limited" and may have future collector's value. I am a perfect example of their target group. I buy movies not only to enjoy like everyone else, but to collect and to own. And in that regard it's more fun to collect movies that hold their value more than those which sell for $3-$5 in two years. I buy movies because I like them just like anyone else, but there is so much to choose from and so limited time to watch them, that I tend to choose those kinds of movies over others (all other things being equal). But now I see so many titles selling for so cheap it doesn't have that sort of appeal anymore. Maybe if they reduce to 1500 it will again but you can't have it both ways, appealing to collectors and having it available for years and years with no end in sight.

[Brad1963]

I cannot believe there is still discussion about Twilight Time and their business model after all these years. Everyone seems to think they know better than the 2 the men who started the company. Both of who spent their careers working in the Home Entertainment field, and have the experience to know how things work and how to make it succeed.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by Brad1963

I cannot believe there is still discussion about Twilight Time and their business model after all these years. Everyone seems to think they know better than the 2 the men who started the company. Both of who spent their careers working in the Home Entertainment field, and have the experience to know how things work and how to make it succeed.

Brad, I'm assuming you missed this:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...ostcount=25348

Originally Posted by iamnoone

Not sure if it's OK to quote TT from another forum (HTF), but I was surprised to see no one has mentioned their comment over there this morning that they are considering lowering units to 1,500 as the market is glutted and they may close shop in several years due to all the competition and rising licensing fees.


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Dick said: ↑
From a DVD Talk web site post came this line:

"TT has also mentioned the possibility of lowering the number of copies from 3000 down to 1500 due to the the decline of sales, so things are always changing."

Has anyone here any supporting information? Seeing the increase of sales on the TT or SAE sites, it seems plausible.

Perhaps Nick could chime in on this.
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Twilight Time:

Nothing much to add --- it is now a matter of common sense. Sales are cratering across the board for every label, although it is a good time for collectors with the product glut far outweighing an audience to buy it. Just as we predicted six years ago, the business has entirely devolved to third party licensees involved in a frenzy for the studios who now realize there is more money to be made in farming stuff out than releasing themselves. Greed though, always becomes a factor and the studios are driving up the licensing fees and advance guarantees in direct contradiction of the waning sales figures. We are entering the final phase of the physical media business with labels toying with more and more limited runs targeting those collectors that are left gamely trying to keep up - it's been a wild ride - and perhaps it will continue for a few years more. When we began TT in 2010 we figured on maybe lasting 5 or 6 years - we're now looking at 2020 as the end game which will mean we lasted 10 - not so bad in the grand scheme of things.

[Brad1963]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Brad, I'm assuming you missed this:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...ostcount=25348

I did not see that. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

[belcherman]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

I think it helps too when a label gets identified with the films of certain talent. When I think of Criterion I think of Kurosawa, Altman, Bergman, etc.. When I think of Twilight Time I think of....Charles Bronson...which is not a knock on him because I've gotten a lot of their Bronson stuff, but you see where I'm going with that.

Funny, when I think of Twilight Time, I think of classic American film of the 50s, 60s and 70s. I think of talent like Bogart, Sinatra, Nicholson, Allen, both Hepburns, Poitier, Stewart, Wayne and the list goes on. Say what you will, but Twilight Time puts out a higher percentage of movies I want than just about any other label, with the possible exception of WAC. I would miss them if they closed shop and I'm not confident that there would be another label to pick up the slack.

[painiac]

after buying a number of titles at $30 and feeling the aforementioned pressure to get movies quickly at a premium, i started looking to international options. i actually bought a bunch of titles this week during the sales, saving a bundle.

i really like the Indicator series happening in the UK which as releasing stuff from TT's roster in much nicer looking editions. i'm actually not crazy about most of TT's presentation (meaning covers), and since i'm collecting them, that means a lot to me.

if titles i own disappear but emerge in the UK, i'll try to sell the TT for what i paid and import the other one. i can save myself about 50% that way.

[klauswhereareyou]

Originally Posted by belcherman

Funny, when I think of Twilight Time, I think of classic American film of the 50s, 60s and 70s. I think of talent like Bogart, Sinatra, Nicholson, Allen, both Hepburns, Poitier, Stewart, Wayne and the list goes on. Say what you will, but Twilight Time puts out a higher percentage of movies I want than just about any other label, with the possible exception of WAC. I would miss them if they closed shop and I'm not confident that there would be another label to pick up the slack.

Ha, you've got a point...I guess for some reason the only person I could think of that had quite a few titles in the TT collection is Bronson. I guess though when I think of them I just think of who they license from. Even a company like Shout Factory I think of being kind of the home of John Carpenter on blu-ray. Yeah I don't want them to go out of business at all, because I still think they put out a lot of stuff that other labels would not bother touching.

[klauswhereareyou]

I think they would've been better off if somehow they could've worked something out with Paramount or Disney, because there are still tons of titles from those companies (especially stuff from the 70's-early 00's) that will probably never make it to blu-ray.

[Brad1963]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Brad, I'm assuming you missed this:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...ostcount=25348

Okay, that makes sense. Now I know where the discussion originated from. It makes sense they are looking towards to future. If they lower the qty to 1,500 units and helps them keep going then I am for it. I'd imagine they would keep it at 3,000 units for specific genre films. But I could see them thinking 3,000 units is too much for some of the lesser known titles they have released.

[Brad1963]

Originally Posted by belcherman

Funny, when I think of Twilight Time, I think of classic American film of the 50s, 60s and 70s. I think of talent like Bogart, Sinatra, Nicholson, Allen, both Hepburns, Poitier, Stewart, Wayne and the list goes on. Say what you will, but Twilight Time puts out a higher percentage of movies I want than just about any other label, with the possible exception of WAC. I would miss them if they closed shop and I'm not confident that there would be another label to pick up the slack.

I think we have to wait and see where the market is in 2020. In 2005 I was told by someone at one of the studios that they expected physical media to last another 5 years. It is 12 years after that remark and there is still a market for it. Not as big, but it is still there.

[MassiveMovieBuff]

Originally Posted by painiac

after buying a number of titles at $30 and feeling the aforementioned pressure to get movies quickly at a premium, i started looking to international options. i actually bought a bunch of titles this week during the sales, saving a bundle.

i really like the Indicator series happening in the UK which as releasing stuff from TT's roster in much nicer looking editions. i'm actually not crazy about most of TT's presentation (meaning covers), and since i'm collecting them, that means a lot to me.

if titles i own disappear but emerge in the UK, i'll try to sell the TT for what i paid and import the other one. i can save myself about 50% that way.

Yeah but look at the Umbrella region free release of The Blob 1988 and the original. From what I've read the 1988 release has some bad transfer issues while TT's is stellar and Criterion has a definitive release of the original. I know TT's 1988 Blob is sold out but for me it would be worth it to buy at a higher price on amazon to have a better transfer. That's where cheapness comes into play with a lot of consumers who would rather have a cheaper release than a quality one which hurts blu ray. I know there's other UK region free editions that are quality but its the bigger picture too with other boutique labels.

[MassiveMovieBuff]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

I think they would've been better off if somehow they could've worked something out with Paramount or Disney, because there are still tons of titles from those companies (especially stuff from the 70's-early 00's) that will probably never make it to blu-ray.

Oh I wish so bad that TT could get Paramounts catalog.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by Brad1963

Okay, that makes sense. Now I know where the discussion originated from. It makes sense they are looking towards to future. If they lower the qty to 1,500 units and helps them keep going then I am for it. I'd imagine they would keep it at 3,000 units for specific genre films. But I could see them thinking 3,000 units is too much for some of the lesser known titles they have released.

I wouldn't be for it. Making things even more limited for people? They may struggle to sell 1500 of a certain title, but then again some of those 1500 releases may sell out quickly and if they stick by the limited edition, no re-releases thing then more people would lose out and then we'd be back to square one with the whole thing of people feeling obligated to buy right now for fear of losing out. What kind of way is that to engender good customer relations? Maybe we should let this company die and allow the other companies that don't stick by such a restrictive model step in and take over. Just because the studios themselves are not interested doesn't mean that companies like Shout or Kino aren't doing an awesome job of putting out great releases using the more traditional sales model.