Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[Hoke Moseley]

Originally Posted by Aclea

Cagney was a big fan of the film and was going to star in Passer's next film, Eagle of Broadway as an elderly Bat Masterson, but between his insurance problems and the lousy box office for Cutter it fell through.

Very interesting tidbit. Just the thought of an 80-something Cagney watching Cutter's Way is kind of awesome to me.

[Dubstar]

Originally Posted by StarDestroyer52

My favorite TT movie which also happened to be the first TT film I bought is To Sir, With Love. I grew up watching it over and over again and it has a very good set of extras. IMO, I say its film that everyone should own. How to Steal A Million is not very far behind.

well don't listen to the commentary track on To Sir, With Love - that rubbed me the wrong way.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by Hoke Moseley

Very interesting tidbit. Just the thought of an 80-something Cagney watching Cutter's Way is kind of awesome to me.

He obviously had a thing for Czech new wave directors - it was Milos Forman who coaxed him out of retirement for Ragtime, and had the film with Passer come off that would have been two in a row. But Cagney was surprisingly modern in his tastes right up to the end.

[SeanJoyce]

Originally Posted by Aclea

He obviously had a thing for Czech new wave directors - it was Milos Forman who coaxed him out of retirement for Ragtime, and had the film with Passer come off that would have been two in a row. But Cagney was surprisingly modern in his tastes right up to the end.

Ragtime...there's a film that nobody talks about. I popped it in a while back so I could mow through more of Forman's work. What a bizarre experience, I still haven't fully coagulated my thoughts on it.

I will say though that Howard E. Rollins Jr. was superb and I wish he'd gotten more roles.

What do you think of it?

[Doc Moonlight]

Originally Posted by Aclea

It was Cutter and Bone when it opened in New York and the initial reviews were so bad UA wanted to dump it after a week, then was relaunched as Cutter's Way by their arthouse division.

A similar fate befell another TT release. CHILLY SCENES OF WINTER was originally released under the title "HEAD OVER HEELS". It bombed, was withdrawn and then re-released by UA's arthouse division with it's current title.

Coincidentally, both films starred John Heard.

[KJones77]

Originally Posted by Dubstar

well don't listen to the commentary track on To Sir, With Love - that rubbed me the wrong way.

How so?

[belcherman]

Originally Posted by SeanJoyce

Ragtime...there's a film that nobody talks about. I popped it in a while back so I could mow through more of Forman's work. What a bizarre experience, I still haven't fully coagulated my thoughts on it.

I will say though that Howard E. Rollins Jr. was superb and I wish he'd gotten more roles.

What do you think of it?

I liked it quite a bit, although it didn’t quite capture the novel’s tone. I read the book before seeing the film, and recently reread the book and it was even better than I remembered. Having said that, I think the movie succeeds on its own terms. Plus, Cagney.

[SeanJoyce]

Originally Posted by belcherman

Plus, Cagney.

Don't forget his "Irish mafia" costar from way back, Pat O'Brien!

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by SeanJoyce

Ragtime...there's a film that nobody talks about. I popped it in a while back so I could mow through more of Forman's work. What a bizarre experience, I still haven't fully coagulated my thoughts on it.

I will say though that Howard E. Rollins Jr. was superb and I wish he'd gotten more roles.

What do you think of it?

Sorry for the belated reply - blame a temperamental tablet that takes forever to charge and constantly crashes and a leak in the roof of my storage unit meaning having to arrange to shift everything to another unit (4/5ths of my life is in storage while I try to find a new permanent abode I can actually afford to buy). It's been a fun couple of days...

I'm very fond of the film and saw it several times on the big screen, and though I'm, more aware of its faults now I still like it a lot. On one level it's not a great adaptation of the novel, which is quite stylized - the stage musical is much better at catching its kaleidoscopic nature and whirlwind pace - and the structure can be a bit top and bottom heavy (the first third dominated by Elizabeth McGovern's career-best turn as Evelyn Nesbitt before she got typecast as the 'nice' girl in everything, the last by Rollins' Coalhouse Walker Jr - and could Doctorow have made a more obvious reference to Michael Kohlhaas with that name?) with the middle third less showy. It probably could have benefitted from more audacious editing in places, though I think some of the changes from the novel make a lot of sense: it's hard to sell Father as a pillar of conventional society and everyman figure when he disappears from the first third of the book to join one of Peary's Polar expeditions. But there's still so much to enjoy. There's a terrific cast of old and new faces (even silent star Bessie Love has a small role), what for me is not just Randy Newman's best score but one of the best scores of all time, gorgeous production design, one last pairing for Cagney and O'Brien, not to mention the gorgeous irony of Cagney being the one who (metaphorically) pulls the trigger on a misunderstood public enemy on the steps of a city building this time. But then I'm especially partially to old fashioned epics aimed at grownups - of which this, Reds, The Bounty, The Right Stuff and Once Upon a Time in America were pretty much the last gasp - and Cagney, so I was predisposed to like it.

With Paramount holding the US rights it's unlikely we'll see that on Blu any time soon in the States, but like all of Dino's films it was sold to multiple overseas distributors (his standard routine was to tell Paramount it cost twice as much, sell them the US rights for half of that - the real cost of the picture - and make his profit on overseas sales), so it may turn up in Europe. Sadly I doubt it'll ever be restored to Forman's original longer cut (the Emma Goldman scene is included in black and white on the Paramount DVD but there were apparently additional scenes with Houdini that weren't), but right now I'd settle for the theatrical version.

With Rollins, I believe it was a combination of Ragtime flopping and his drug problem that held his big screen career back, but it still seems absurd that even with an Oscar nomination he would only make five movies. With different breaks and if he'd kicked the habit sooner it's not too much of a stretch to think that he could have had Denzil Washington's career.

[SeanJoyce]

Originally Posted by Aclea

Sorry for the belated reply - blame a temperamental tablet that takes forever to charge and constantly crashes and a leak in the roof of my storage unit meaning having to arrange to shift everything to another unit (4/5ths of my life is in storage while I try to find a new permanent abode I can actually afford to buy). It's been a fun couple of days...

No problem, I'm sorry to hear that and I hope you get it all sorted out.

With Rollins, I believe it was a combination of Ragtime flopping and his drug problem that held his big screen career back, but it still seems absurd that even with an Oscar nomination he would only make five movies. With different breaks and if he'd kicked the habit sooner it's not too much of a stretch to think that he could have had Denzil Washington's career.

Another tragic case of a burgeoning career cut unjustly short.

What do you think of Patinkin's work there? You think his screen career should have made been more than what it was?

(I'm sorry to go off the TT rails...this is my last tangential post.)

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by SeanJoyce

No problem, I'm sorry to hear that and I hope you get it all sorted out.

You and me both. There's nothing more I can do until after the weekend now beyond hoping it doesn't rain or spring another leak.

What do you think of Patinkin's work there? You think his screen career should have made been more than what it was?

I think he's great in it - but I half suspect he was probably too convincing as an immigrant with limited English for it to give his career much of a boost at the time (I can see some people thinking he was an actor Forman found in Europe rather than an American). He's another one who should have had a better big screen career than he did (something that goes for a lot of people in the film: Rollins, McGovern, Robert Joy - it's ironic that Samuel L. Jackson was the one who got the best career, and he spends much of the film with a sack over his head!), but in his case a lot of that's down to his abrasive personality.

(I'm sorry to go off the TT rails...this is my last tangential post.)

Who knows, maybe one day TT will get a Paramount deal and it won't be tangential. It's a boutique label movie these days if ever there was one, and they do love their forgotten epics.

[belcherman]

Originally Posted by Aclea

Sorry for the belated reply - blame a temperamental tablet that takes forever to charge and constantly crashes and a leak in the roof of my storage unit meaning having to arrange to shift everything to another unit (4/5ths of my life is in storage while I try to find a new permanent abode I can actually afford to buy). It's been a fun couple of days...

I'm very fond of the film and saw it several times on the big screen, and though I'm, more aware of its faults now I still like it a lot. On one level it's not a great adaptation of the novel, which is quite stylized - the stage musical is much better at catching its kaleidoscopic nature and whirlwind pace - and the structure can be a bit top and bottom heavy (the first third dominated by Elizabeth McGovern's career-best turn as Evelyn Nesbitt before she got typecast as the 'nice' girl in everything, the last by Rollins' Coalhouse Walker Jr - and could Doctorow have made a more obvious reference to Michael Kohlhaas with that name?) with the middle third less showy. It probably could have benefitted from more audacious editing in places, though I think some of the changes from the novel make a lot of sense: it's hard to sell Father as a pillar of conventional society and everyman figure when he disappears from the first third of the book to join one of Peary's Polar expeditions. But there's still so much to enjoy. There's a terrific cast of old and new faces (even silent star Bessie Love has a small role), what for me is not just Randy Newman's best score but one of the best scores of all time, gorgeous production design, one last pairing for Cagney and O'Brien, not to mention the gorgeous irony of Cagney being the one who (metaphorically) pulls the trigger on a misunderstood public enemy on the steps of a city building this time. But then I'm especially partially to old fashioned epics aimed at grownups - of which this, Reds, The Bounty, The Right Stuff and Once Upon a Time in America were pretty much the last gasp - and Cagney, so I was predisposed to like it.

With Paramount holding the US rights it's unlikely we'll see that on Blu any time soon in the States, but like all of Dino's films it was sold to multiple overseas distributors (his standard routine was to tell Paramount it cost twice as much, sell them the US rights for half of that - the real cost of the picture - and make his profit on overseas sales), so it may turn up in Europe. Sadly I doubt it'll ever be restored to Forman's original longer cut (the Emma Goldman scene is included in black and white on the Paramount DVD but there were apparently additional scenes with Houdini that weren't), but right now I'd settle for the theatrical version.

With Rollins, I believe it was a combination of Ragtime flopping and his drug problem that held his big screen career back, but it still seems absurd that even with an Oscar nomination he would only make five movies. With different breaks and if he'd kicked the habit sooner it's not too much of a stretch to think that he could have had Denzil Washington's career.

I agree with you about Randy Newman’s score. It might be his best, capturing the feel of a changing America in music. Not that I put much stock in the Academy Awards, but I think Newman got jobbed that year, getting passed over for Vangelis’s more obvious and bombastic score for Chariots of Fire.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by belcherman

I agree with you about Randy Newman’s score. It might be his best, capturing the feel of a changing America in music. Not that I put much stock in the Academy Awards, but I think Newman got jobbed that year, getting passed over for Vangelis’s more obvious and bombastic score for Chariots of Fire.

And it's remarkable the way he manages to infuse it with his personality while still convincingly reflecting that musical evolution of the era. I'm sure that when Dino bought the screen rights he (and others) were thinking of something like Marvin Hamlisch's adaptations of Scott Joplin for The Sting (which are perfectly matched to that movie), but Newman goes right back to the source without losing his own voice in it while expressing a wide variety of emotional moods. It's a brilliant pastiche in the very best sense of the word. It's a wonder I didn't wear out the LP during the long, long wait for it to get released on CD 21 years after the film came out.

I do remember seeing the Oscars telecast that year and being horrified at John Schneider's rendition of the delicate title song, One More Hour, which he treated almost like grand opera and drowned the plaintive simplicity in bombast: it was like listening to a tree being cut down. If the voters had heard that version, they'd never have nominated it. And yes, roundly jobbed - you'd have thought he'd have won at least one of his two Oscar nominations (Original Score and Original Song).

[78deluxe]

Originally Posted by belcherman

I agree with you about Randy Newman’s score. It might be his best, capturing the feel of a changing America in music. Not that I put much stock in the Academy Awards, but I think Newman got jobbed that year, getting passed over for Vangelis’s more obvious and bombastic score for Chariots of Fire.

Haven't seen or heard the Chariots theme in probably 20 years. However I could hum the basic melody today on the spot.

Only a hand full if themes could I do that for, not to mention the minds eye visuals it conjures up. No way he got snubbed, it is iconic.

Even if I didn't care for the film.

[Aclea]

But how much of the rest of the score can you remember? There is a lot more to film scoring than writing one memorable theme.

[Cremildo]

Originally Posted by 78deluxe

Only a hand full if themes could I do that for, not to mention the minds eye visuals it conjures up. No way he got snubbed, it is iconic.

Agreed.

I can't remember anything about the music of Ragtime.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by Aclea

But how much of the rest of the score can you remember? There is a lot more to film scoring than writing one memorable theme.

That's all anyone remembers about Jaws too though. I remember lots of the score for Chariots of Fire and I think it's a great piece of work which dares to go against the convention of having a movie set in the 20s have cliched 20s style music. Nowadays people tend to dismiss it because it's not your traditional orchestral score (which at the time of Chariots of Fire was largely passe except for the work of John Williams). I cannot comment on the work of Randy Newman in Ragtime as I've never seen it but I don't think it's necessary to throw Vangelis under the bus.

[belcherman]

Originally Posted by 78deluxe

Haven't seen or heard the Chariots theme in probably 20 years. However I could hum the basic melody today on the spot.

Only a hand full if themes could I do that for, not to mention the minds eye visuals it conjures up. No way he got snubbed, it is iconic.

Even if I didn't care for the film.

Being an earworm does’t make it great music. By the way, I really liked Chariots of Fire.

Vangelis’s score was great for what it was: hero music for a movie about heroes. I just thought that Newman’s score was more varied and nuanced. Granted, it has been about 30 years since I’ve seen either film. I need to fix that.

[SeanJoyce]

This Ragtime vs. Chariots of Fire debate is irrelevant anyways, since Williams' Raiders of the Lost Ark theme is the best score of '81.

[AKORIS]

Originally Posted by SeanJoyce

This Ragtime vs. Chariots of Fire debate is irrelevant anyways, since Williams' Raiders of the Lost Ark theme is the best score of '81.

I'm gonna have to say John Barry's BODY HEAT score is my favorite from '81