Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[belcherman]

Originally Posted by English Patient

That's sad but unsurprising. It was a bit of an eye-opener for me to see these TT sales over the last couple years with so many titles struggling to sell out - like Remains of the Day, which I think took more than 4 years to sell 3,000 copies. And this was a fairly popular movie from the '90s with Anthony Hopkins and Emma Thompson, with lots of Oscar nominations. It's not like it was an obscure title from the '50s. There's definitely trouble in the market when prestige catalog titles like that sit on the shelf for years and years.

Sales of Remains of the Day may have been hampered by Sony having already released it in the UK, region-free. But yeah, sales were down for most titles, for sure.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by rdodolak

It does seem like Nick Redman was the glue (passion) that held the company together.

Because Nick was always the public face of the company, and because Brian doesn't really do social media and has never been one to blow his own trumpet, Brian Jamieson's role has always been undervalued and it has inadvertently been given the appearance of TT being a bit of a one-man band. Although he's not widely known outside the industry, within it Brian's been one of the most respected figures in home video for decades (indeed he was one of only three people at Warner Bros. Stanley Kubrick would deal with between movies) and been one of the driving forces behind a lot of things collectors now take for granted like extra features, widescreen transfers and special editions back in the days when studios were happy to slap an old panned-and-scanned TV master on VHS. More than that, he's a genuine rarity in the industry: someone who genuinely loved and knew movies who was in a position to get them out with the kind of love and attention they deserved. More than that, he had the ability to put the right people together to get his special projects through, and the ability to defend them against beancounters, plotters and jobsworths you find in every major studio (not to mention his other superpower, the ability to tactfully smooth over any mistakes or disputes that team may cause through error or temperament).

Even when he left Warners, his love of movies, particularly ones the studios were overlooking, led him to start another home video company with people he'd worked with before, even though he still has outside commitments in the industry. Without him and his passion (and his reputation in the industry to get the licensing deals in the first place), there never would have been a Twilight Time.

What you have to bear in mind is that Twilight Time was put together in much the same way that Brian put together his special projects at Warner Home Video: a small, specialised team with complimentary skills that did their thing more or less outside or on the fringes of the corporate structure: Brian basically was the buffer between getting the best product and the distribution side. With TT there is no corporate distribution structure and with so few people involved in the project the loss of any one for any reason is going to have a big impact and is going to require a rethink. With the shrinking market, the Fox moratorium and other factors, it's not a bad idea to take some time out to re-evaluate, especially since with Nick handling most of the special features and Julie understandably having to cope with her very personal loss things are going to have to change.

Hopefully it will pay off for all concerned, but you have to bear in mind that TT was always a small team working outside the mainstream, all equally important to the smooth running of the company, and aside from the personal issues, the loss of any part of that team will have an effect.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by 78deluxe

They mentioned 30K-60K licencing costs in the article. Obviously that is for a 3K limited run. Has to be something else going on here, as I can't image other similar companies (lets say Kino, Olive as general examples) are living in the same world exactly.

The original deal was based on the model Nick Redman used for licensing soundtracks with the Musicians unions (designed to get around prohibitive royalty payments in that specific case): they would strictly limit the number of copies and would pay those royalties upfront. Because the major studios were wary about licensing to startups - they've all been burned before by companies that went under before the first royalty payment was due - and because they didn't have the wide distribution infrastructure that labels like Shout or Koch have to reassure the studios that they'd sell enough copies to make the cost of drawing up the contracts worthwhile, TT would pay the studios the royalties for the full run upfront so the studio's risk would be eliminated. However, it put all the risk on TT's side, having to come up with a pricing structure that would be enough to cover their costs and give them enough to plow back into future titles.

With people now more reluctant to pay the full price and waiting for sales that means they have to shift more sale copies just to break even on a title.

[vortexx]

Originally Posted by Aclea

The original deal was based on the model Nick Redman used for licensing soundtracks with the Musicians unions (designed to get around prohibitive royalty payments in that specific case): they would strictly limit the number of copies and would pay those royalties upfront. Because the major studios were wary about licensing to startups - they've all been burned before by companies that went under before the first royalty payment was due - and because they didn't have the wide distribution infrastructure that labels like Shout or Koch have to reassure the studios that they'd sell enough copies to make the cost of drawing up the contracts worthwhile, TT would pay the studios the royalties for the full run upfront so thestudio's risk would be eliminated. However, it put all the risk on TT's side, having to come up with a pricing structure that would be enough to cover their costs and give them enough to plow back into future titles.

With people now more reluctant to pay the full price and waiting for sales that means they have to shift more sale copies just to break even on a title.

Yes, studios dont generally want royalty deals, but those figures wouldn't be for single titles (particularly many of the older titles Twilight Time was releasing).

[Aclea]

Studios rarely license single titles: to make their costs (legal, time, sourcing master material etc) worthwhile they'll want multi-title deals or a commitment to license x number of titles per quarter or two quarter period. Also, bear in mind that French article may be a victim of double translation errors (translating English into French and then translating the French translation into English).

[jayembee]

Originally Posted by herbie44

The Kino insider said they expected more Fox titles and deals with Fox Disney in their recent posts and didn't expect any changes with them so should be same with other labels.

Not necessarily. Kino is in a slightly different position than other labels, as they already have a working licensing relationship with Disney for the ABC Pictures catalog, and I believe that the KLI was being optimistic that this would give them a leg up in being able to continue licensing Fox titles.

And then there's the issue of the source material. Twilight Time's relationship with Fox got them, for the large part, restored masters for their releases. If Disney isn't inclined to spend a lot of money cleaning up a bunch of "old" films just to satisfy a licensee, there's likely to be fewer titles that the folks at TT will want to get from them. Kino, I hate to say, is more likely to just take what Disney gives them.

[lemonski]

Originally Posted by Brad1963

The recent announcement from Kino indicating they are dropping a large chunk of titles is a sign that the market is dwindling.

I'm not sure there was that much of a market for some of those titles even in good times, KL probably got them thrown in as part of a bulk licensing deal and it cost them relatively little to put them out and "see what happens".

On the flip side, the proliferation of UK labels like Indicator, Powerhouse, Arrow, Eureka and Second Sight seems to prove that if you pick your business model carefully you can do OK.

[TravisTylerBlack]

Twilight Time has been a godsend in many respects but they have always suffered from a lack of exposure in an increasingly niche market. People don’t generally know they exist unless they go specifically searching for a film that they happen to have licensed and released.

I have around 60 titles from them and have many more on my want list, but looking back at their release output over the last year there are only about half a dozen titles that I’ve even heard of before. Either they need to re-think their title choices or are running out of good, known titles to choose from.

[Aclea]

Well, that's one of the challenges you'll find with a label run by enthusiasts: for the most part they release films they know and love and grew up with, which is why there was initially such an emphasis on 50s-60s titles and the CinemaScope era, but that's not always what the collectors who make up the modern Bluray market grew up with or know. For some here part of the fun with labels like TT, Olive and Indicator/Powerhouse is discovering some films you never heard of, but for many others (as you can see from the comments on the news pages) they're only interested in what they already know. It's a delicate balancing act, and perhaps TT have been driven more by their personal passion for the films than by purely commercial decisions.

[StarDestroyer52]

Originally Posted by Aclea

Well, that's one of the challenges you'll find with a label run by enthusiasts: for the most part they release films they know and love and grew up with, which is why there was initially such an emphasis on 50s-60s titles and the CinemaScope era, but that's not always what the collectors who make up the modern Bluray market grew up with or know. For some here part of the fun with labels like TT, Olive and Indicator/Powerhouse is discovering some films you never heard of, but for many others (as you can see from the comments on the news pages) they're only interested in what they already know. It's a delicate balancing act, and perhaps TT have been driven more by their personal passion for the films than by purely commercial decisions.

It did seem like anything that was Ray Harryhausen did sell since I was very happy when Indicator ended up releasing there Harryhausen box sets since I was late to the TT game discovering the label very late.

Regarding the titles released discovering many of the titles for me is half the fun, but then I also was the rare younger kid growing up[least without disclosing my age I assume I'm probably a lot younger than many collectors] that gravitated towards what the older film fans were watching and what they liked, and I always grew up around a lot of older films. There's a lot of TT films I would love to get but there's the financial part for me. As I've said before I have no problem with the TT model, and they've released many great noirs and the two Poitier films from 1967[To Sir with Love which happened to be a favorite of my mother growing up and was the very first TT film I got and for full price since it was always a favorite of mine] which I picked up.

[TravisTylerBlack]

Originally Posted by Aclea

Well, that's one of the challenges you'll find with a label run by enthusiasts: for the most part they release films they know and love and grew up with, which is why there was initially such an emphasis on 50s-60s titles and the CinemaScope era, but that's not always what the collectors who make up the modern Bluray market grew up with or know. For some here part of the fun with labels like TT, Olive and Indicator/Powerhouse is discovering some films you never heard of, but for many others (as you can see from the comments on the news pages) they're only interested in what they already know. It's a delicate balancing act, and perhaps TT have been driven more by their personal passion for the films than by purely commercial decisions.

Have had many wonderful first-time viewings thanks to TT and have enjoyed discovering a number of obscure gems that may not have otherwise seen an HD release. That being said, at $30+shipping a pop I do not buy anything at full price from them unless I am 90% sure that it’s a title I will enjoy owning.

And although I am by no means an authority or historian, like many on this forum I do consider myself a well rounded film buff with taste spanning across all decades and all genres. Even so, much of the time it seems like TT not only chooses titles that are obscure, but also not very good. I don’t necessarily need to have heard of a title to make a blind buy, but I do want to be confident that it’s not mediocre-to-bad.

Thankfully I’ve gotten lucky a few times now and nabbed some sold out titles that have become fast favorites (A Man For All Seasons, Khartoum, Bye Bye Birdie, Swamp People ) and I’ve missed out on a some that are long gone and impossible to find now (Bell Book And Candle, Leave Her To Heaven) without paying upwards of $100 on the secondary market.

[KJones77]

Halloween sale. All titles below are $14.95:

$14.95
8 Heads in a Duffel Bag (Blu-ray)
Count Yorga, Vampire (Blu-ray)
Strange Invaders (Blu-ray)
La Bambola Di Satana AKA The Doll Of Satan (Blu-ray)
Gran Bollito AKA Black Journal (Blu-ray)
Pretty Poison (Blu-ray)
Pirates Of Blood River, The (Blu-ray)
Dragonwyck (Blu-ray)
Black Widow [1954] (Blu-ray)
Short Night of Glass Dolls [La Corta Notte Della Bambole Di Vetro] (Blu-ray)
Snake Pit, The (Blu-ray)
Black Widow (Blu-ray)

[belcherman]

I found this old interview with the late Nick Redman on another forum where he talks about the Twilight Time business model, how they make deals with studios, how they choose films, etc. It's from 2011 when they were just starting out, but I would not be surprised it things were the same in 2019. This is the part that stuck out to me, in light of recent discussions:

We pay a per unit charge, and on top of that royalty, which is significant, particularly on a limited number of units, we have to pay our replicators, we have to pay for the packaging, we have to pay for the authoring, compression, and everything else that goes with it. So therefore in order for Twilight Time to break even on one of our titles we would have to sell almost two-thirds of the run to actually be in the black, 1500-2000 units just to recoup.

https://www.hometheaterforum.com/com...d-more.310943/

If they're no longer selling enough to reach that break-even point on most titles, it's not surprising that they're taking time out to reassess.

[bsend]

Originally Posted by KJones77

Halloween sale. All titles below are $14.95:

$14.95
8 Heads in a Duffel Bag (Blu-ray)
Count Yorga, Vampire (Blu-ray)
Strange Invaders (Blu-ray)
La Bambola Di Satana AKA The Doll Of Satan (Blu-ray)
Gran Bollito AKA Black Journal (Blu-ray)
Pretty Poison (Blu-ray)
Pirates Of Blood River, The (Blu-ray)
Dragonwyck (Blu-ray)
Black Widow [1954] (Blu-ray)
Short Night of Glass Dolls [La Corta Notte Della Bambole Di Vetro] (Blu-ray)
Snake Pit, The (Blu-ray)
Black Widow (Blu-ray)

Some decent prices. Doll of Satan and Short Night of the Glass Dolls were $9.95 during the last sale.

[TravisTylerBlack]

Originally Posted by belcherman

If they're no longer selling enough to reach that break-even point on most titles, it's not surprising that they're taking time out to reassess.

Geez. Talk about some sobering perspective. He probably meant sell that many at full price as well. Now I really feel like a twat for not buying any of their 2019 titles yet.

Still, with such a narrow profit margin you would think they’d be anxious to license as many well known titles as possible.

[AnthonyGG]

Finally nabbed 8 Heads in a Duffel Bag and Short Night of Glass Dolls today, due to the sale. I've been looking at those 2 for a while so what the hell?

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by TravisTylerBlack

Have had many wonderful first-time viewings thanks to TT and have enjoyed discovering a number of obscure gems that may not have otherwise seen an HD release. That being said, at $30+shipping a pop I do not buy anything at full price from them unless I am 90% sure that it’s a title I will enjoy owning.

And although I am by no means an authority or historian, like many on this forum I do consider myself a well rounded film buff with taste spanning across all decades and all genres. Even so, much of the time it seems like TT not only chooses titles that are obscure, but also not very good. I don’t necessarily need to have heard of a title to make a blind buy, but I do want to be confident that it’s not mediocre-to-bad.

Thankfully I’ve gotten lucky a few times now and nabbed some sold out titles that have become fast favorites (A Man For All Seasons, Khartoum, Bye Bye Birdie, Swamp People ) and I’ve missed out on a some that are long gone and impossible to find now (Bell Book And Candle, Leave Her To Heaven) without paying upwards of $100 on the secondary market.

Sony have released Bell Book and Candle in Spain if that’s a title you still want to own:

https://www.amazon.es/Me-Enamore-Una-Bruja-Blu-ray/dp/B07MCL42HF/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=bell+book+and+candle&qid=1 571184797&sprefix=bell+book+&sr=8-1

[amputd]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

Sony have released Bell Book and Candle in Spain if that’s a title you still want to own:

https://www.amazon.es/Me-Enamore-Una-Bruja-Blu-ray/dp/B07MCL42HF/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=bell+book+and+candle&qid=1 571184797&sprefix=bell+book+&sr=8-1

I can vouch for the quality of the Spanish release- very nice transfer. I recently picked it up. Big thanks to RCRochester for alerting me to it on the film’s original thread and providing the link

[jayembee]

Originally Posted by KJones77

Halloween sale. All titles below are $14.95:

$14.95
8 Heads in a Duffel Bag (Blu-ray)
Count Yorga, Vampire (Blu-ray)
Strange Invaders (Blu-ray)
La Bambola Di Satana AKA The Doll Of Satan (Blu-ray)
Gran Bollito AKA Black Journal (Blu-ray)
Pretty Poison (Blu-ray)
Pirates Of Blood River, The (Blu-ray)
Dragonwyck (Blu-ray)
Black Widow [1954] (Blu-ray)
Short Night of Glass Dolls [La Corta Notte Della Bambole Di Vetro] (Blu-ray)
Snake Pit, The (Blu-ray)
Black Widow (Blu-ray)

Those are the 12 that are offered by TT at their own website. SAE has all of those, and an additional four on offer:

THE BOSTON STRANGLER (1968) - FEWER THAN 200 COPIES REMAIN!
DEVIL IN A BLUE DRESS (1995) - FEWER THAN 200 COPIES REMAIN!
THE HOUND OF THE BASKERVILLES (1959) - FEWER THAN 250 COPIES REMAIN!
THEATRE OF BLOOD (1973)

[Dailyan]

Solid sale selection. I’ll nab “The Hound of Bakersville” and get “The Boston Strangler” for a friend. “The Boston Strangler” is an excellent film that’s one of my favorite TT blind-buys.