Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

Yep. Nearly $7.00 to ship two Blus. There are very few titles I need anymore that would justify that kind of gouging. If they need to somehow sneak in additional profit by hiking up shipping fees, that sours me enough to skip their offerings altogether. I’m usually pretty lenient with retailers if they make an effort to meet customers halfway, such as KINO and others who offer a threshold for comped shipping, but this kind of policy and apparent subterfuge is uncalled for and does not present them in a good light. If they need additional revenue to survive as a business, be upfront about it and charge more for the product itself. Their reasoning about the increased shipping may be indeed be sound, but without any evidence to back up their claims, we are being asked to believe it on faith. And I don’t believe it.

It's not additional profit, it's what it costs: shipping costs to retailers are regularly going up unless you're a major like Amazon that has enough volume to set the price it pays or you can afford to swallow the loss on larger orders like Kino.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

Yep. Nearly $7.00 to ship two Blus. There are very few titles I need anymore that would justify that kind of gouging. If they need to somehow sneak in additional profit by hiking up shipping fees, that sours me enough to skip their offerings altogether. I’m usually pretty lenient with retailers if they make an effort to meet customers halfway, such as KINO and others who offer a threshold for comped shipping, but this kind of policy and apparent subterfuge is uncalled for and does not present them in a good light. If they need additional revenue to survive as a business, be upfront about it and charge more for the product itself. Their reasoning about the increased shipping may be indeed be sound, but without any evidence to back up their claims, we are being asked to believe it on faith. And I don’t believe it.

I don't think it has anything to do with wanting to make extra revenue.

From the perspective of someone who has sold on E-Bay for 15+ years, anytime something that you ship doesn't arrive you are on the hook for those costs, unless you have proof in the form of a tracking number or have taken out insurance.

If I am selling a $10 blu-ray to someone, there's no way I can charge the actual amount for tracking and insurance, people just wouldn't buy from me, so I send it via the cheapest method available and on the very rare occasion someone claims it doesn't arrive (either because the item got lost or stolen, or the person is trying to scam me) I just give them the damn refund.

But if someone like Screen Archives is sending $30 blu-rays that, once OOP, are worth hundreds of dollars on the re-sell market, those are some huge losses if people are claiming their packages haven't arrived.

I am thinking that SAE have probably had just one too many people trying to scam them by claiming their items didn't arrive so now, as a small business trying to stay afloat selling a product that is becoming less in demand, they are covering their asses by charging the customers the actual cost for proof of shipping.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

I don't think it has anything to do with wanting to make extra revenue.

From the perspective of someone who has sold on E-Bay for 15+ years, anytime something that you ship doesn't arrive you are on the hook for those costs, unless you have proof in the form of a tracking number or have taken out insurance.

If I am selling a $10 blu-ray to someone, there's no way I can charge the actual amount for tracking and insurance, people just wouldn't buy from me, so I send it via the cheapest method available and on the very rare occasion someone claims it doesn't arrive (either because the item got lost or stolen, or the person is trying to scam me) I just give them the damn refund.

But if someone like Screen Archives is sending $30 blu-rays that, once OOP, are worth hundreds of dollars on the re-sell market, those are some huge losses if people are claiming their packages haven't arrived.

I am thinking that SAE have probably had just one too many people trying to scam them by claiming their items didn't arrive so now, as a small business trying to stay afloat selling a product that is becoming less in demand, they are covering their asses by charging the customers the actual cost for proof of shipping.

/\
This.

[thatguamguy]

That seems reasonable, but I think the speculation that CDs were getting frequently damaged also seems credible. Either way, I agree with you that they are not making any significant profit from shipping.

[Aclea]

Looking at UPS' current rates within the US, they may even be swallowing part of the cost on some orders.

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by Aclea

It's not additional profit, it's what it costs: shipping costs to retailers are regularly going up unless you're a major like Amazon that has enough volume to set the price it pays or you can afford to swallow the loss on larger orders like Kino.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, as a seller myself I do know that rates are constantly going up and there are always going to be bad apples who make false claims that will cost any company additional revenue. But I’ve worked enough in business, retail and otherwise, to pinpoint mistakes that TT and SAE have made from their very beginnings and no one is going to convince me that their shipping costs were EVER reasonable nor in line with other outfits of their approximate size and scope. Your reasoning is fine on paper, but in practice it doesn’t hold water for me. TT has consistently shot themselves in the foot from day one, displaying little to no business acumen, and this latest development reeks of desperation in that same vein.

Just yesterday RONIN FLIX, who can’t be a much larger concern than SAE, unless I’m mistaken, said they now have to charge shipping after years offering no minimum free shipping. However, even there, they are at least offering free shipping with a $30 minimum purchase. Same for Bull Moose. I do not have inside information nor access to TT or SAE’s books, so I cannot claim my views are in anyway definitive, but my somewhat educated OPINION is that they are both mismanaged, unwilling to change and unable to adapt to a changing marketplace.

As such, I respectfully agree to disagree with you and others who claim this is in no way meant to be a tiny way to increase profit or, at the very least, more evidence of unprofessionalism. But unlike most forum posters, I will not hesitate to eat crow and admit I’m wrong if I’m proven to be. And as someone who does not want to see TT fail, I hope I am.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

As such, I respectfully agree to disagree with you and others who claim this is in no way meant to be a tiny way to increase profit or, at the very least, more evidence of unprofessionalism.

It's easy enough to check the UPS rates for yourself. I can't see any way they're making some big profit out of it from them.

[bonehica]

I send out UPS packages every day from our shipping department. Typical ground rates for all of our small packages (1-5lbs) are usually in the 10-15 dollar range. It only rises above 15 when you choose something faster than Ground or we send them out to the west coast. At least, this is what I typically see every day.

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by Aclea

It's easy enough to check the UPS rates for yourself. I can't see any way they're making some big profit out of it from them.

Then why are they using UPS if they are losing money? UPS is a shipper more conducive for big companies, not small ones. Also, most companies who use UPS do it on a contractual basis and are not paying the rates you see quoted on the UPS website. It’s true that UPS may have less incidents of damage than Media Mail from the USPS, but that has never been proven as far as I know. If their damage claims have risen to such a degree I understand the increase, but that still doesn’t explain no free shipping threshold or how smaller companies can survive using more economical shipping methods with presumably the same amount of damage claims.

Sorry, my friend, I’m not convinced. I love a lot of TT product and have many of their titles in my collection, both purchased at SAE and TT, plus I’ve had dealing with SAE’s customer service and at that time I found them to be very nice and courteous and helpful folks. But I have no respect for how they run their businesses.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

I’m not saying you’re wrong, as a seller myself I do know that rates are constantly going up and there are always going to be bad apples who make false claims that will cost any company additional revenue. But I’ve worked enough in business, retail and otherwise, to pinpoint mistakes that TT and SAE have made from their very beginnings and no one is going to convince me that their shipping costs were EVER reasonable nor in line with other outfits of their approximate size and scope. Your reasoning is fine on paper, but in practice it doesn’t hold water for me. TT has consistently shot themselves in the foot from day one, displaying little to no business acumen, and this latest development reeks of desperation in that same vein.

Just yesterday RONIN FLIX, who can’t be a much larger concern than SAE, unless I’m mistaken, said they now have to charge shipping after years offering no minimum free shipping. However, even there, they are at least offering free shipping with a $30 minimum purchase. Same for Bull Moose. I do not have inside information nor access to TT or SAE’s books, so I cannot claim my views are in anyway definitive, but my somewhat educated OPINION is that they are both mismanaged, unwilling to change and unable to adapt to a changing marketplace.

As such, I respectfully agree to disagree with you and others who claim this is in no way meant to be a tiny way to increase profit or, at the very least, more evidence of unprofessionalism. But unlike most forum posters, I will not hesitate to eat crow and admit I’m wrong if I’m proven to be. And as someone who does not want to see TT fail, I hope I am.

I cannot comment on any business specifically, but there are variables that allow some companies to offer discounts on larger orders because they either get shipping discounts themselves from their carriers, or the free shipping acts as a loss leader for customers buying a large amount of product.

But I really don't see this as anything other than responding to an issue that they've been dealing with with customers asking for too many refunds or making too many claims so, I mean, it is to "increase profit" from a certain point of view but I don't think there's any cynical sort of motive behind it.

I honestly don't share your pain though because living in Canada, I have always paid way for more shipping than you guys and had to wait longer for my stuff too, and even companies like Kino that used to offer free shipping to Canada for orders over $100 (when they did and still do offer free shipping to the US for orders that were only $50) no longer do so.

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

I honestly don't share your pain though because living in Canada, I have always paid way for more shipping than you guys and had to wait longer for my stuff too, and even companies like Kino that used to offer free shipping to Canada for orders over $100 (when they did and still do offer free shipping to the US for orders that were only $50) no longer do so.

Well, I can share YOUR pain as I live part of the year in Europe and I know how much additional cost there is to ship stuff there from the USA. AMAZON U.S. tacks on a heavy customs charge, but they will refund the balance if they overestimate it. DeepDiscount has a fixed customs charge, but it is less than Amazon. Both are very reliable sellers though, but it has to be a good deal prior to shipping for me to incur the extra cost. I did order from SAE once and used their international shipping, but it was pretty high. However, packing and delivery were very good.

[noirjunkie]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

I don't think it has anything to do with wanting to make extra revenue.

From the perspective of someone who has sold on E-Bay for 15+ years, anytime something that you ship doesn't arrive you are on the hook for those costs, unless you have proof in the form of a tracking number or have taken out insurance.

[Show spoiler]
If I am selling a $10 blu-ray to someone, there's no way I can charge the actual amount for tracking and insurance, people just wouldn't buy from me, so I send it via the cheapest method available and on the very rare occasion someone claims it doesn't arrive (either because the item got lost or stolen, or the person is trying to scam me) I just give them the damn refund.

But if someone like Screen Archives is sending $30 blu-rays that, once OOP, are worth hundreds of dollars on the re-sell market, those are some huge losses if people are claiming their packages haven't arrived.

I am thinking that SAE have probably had just one too many people trying to scam them by claiming their items didn't arrive so now, as a small business trying to stay afloat selling a product that is becoming less in demand, they are covering their asses by charging the customers the actual cost for proof of shipping.

Here's the problem with this line of thinking: all Media Mail packages are tracked by default, and the tracking number does not cost any extra (at least when purchasing postage online, which businesses do anyway). If someone is claiming they didn't receive a package, it doesn't matter if it was shipped through Media Mail or First Class, because either way, it has a tracking number. So the argument that "we're losing too many packages via Media Mail" is completely bogus.

[Rzzzz]

One thing is for sure, unless they start really cutting these prices, a lot of those discs are now going take even LONGER to sell out...

[thatguamguy]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

Just yesterday RONIN FLIX, who can’t be a much larger concern than SAE, unless I’m mistaken, said they now have to charge shipping after years offering no minimum free shipping.

I admit that I don't order a lot of stuff from Ronin Flix, so I had to jump over to double-check my memory on this one, but most of the movies on Ronin Flix list at $35. Twilight Time titles are $30. I'm not entirely convinced that they're comprable sizes, because I think Ronin focuses on genres that sell better, but let's say they are... this is obviously going to differ from person to person, but I've never been impressed by claims of "free shipping" when the cost of the shipping is just added to the cost of the item before shipping is calculated. To me, that feels like a marketing trick. I wouldn't say the claim is dishonest, but I wouldn't say it's accurate either.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

Well, I can share YOUR pain as I live part of the year in Europe and I know how much additional cost there is to ship stuff there from the USA. AMAZON U.S. tacks on a heavy customs charge, but they will refund the balance if they overestimate it. DeepDiscount has a fixed customs charge, but it is less than Amazon. Both are very reliable sellers though, but it has to be a good deal prior to shipping for me to incur the extra cost. I did order from SAE once and used their international shipping, but it was pretty high. However, packing and delivery were very good.

SAE's shipping to Canada is still significantly cheaper than what Twilight Time themselves charge.

Originally Posted by noirjunkie

Here's the problem with this line of thinking: all Media Mail packages are tracked by default, and the tracking number does not cost any extra (at least when purchasing postage online, which businesses do anyway). If someone is claiming they didn't receive a package, it doesn't matter if it was shipped through Media Mail or First Class, because either way, it has a tracking number. So the argument that "we're losing too many packages via Media Mail" is completely bogus.

I was not aware of that because Canada Post does not offer tracking numbers on its media mail equivalent.

What about insurance then? Does Media Mail cover something that is damaged in the mail?

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by thatguamguy

I admit that I don't order a lot of stuff from Ronin Flix, so I had to jump over to double-check my memory on this one, but most of the movies on Ronin Flix list at $35. Twilight Time titles are $30. I'm not entirely convinced that they're comprable sizes, because I think Ronin focuses on genres that sell better, but let's say they are... this is obviously going to differ from person to person, but I've never been impressed by claims of "free shipping" when the cost of the shipping is just added to the cost of the item before shipping is calculated. To me, that feels like a marketing trick. I wouldn't say the claim is dishonest, but I wouldn't say it's accurate either.

There’s validity to your point, but I don’t know if I would say Ronin Flix is more of a successful operation than SAE when you figure in the latter’s CD sales. As for the higher list prices at Ronin, to me it seems more upfront than inflated shipping, if it is inflated shipping, but I can see how it might be considered a “marketing trick” as you say. I guess it’s all how you perceive it. I’ve ordered from Ronin, but never paid that much for a Blu. In any case, they are now charging for shipping at Ronin and you certainly won’t see reduced prices on their products to compensate. But since they have a free shipping threshold, I don’t usually find that hard to meet when I am planning an order. However, I am a very patient person and never need any Blus fast. Unless something is in danger of selling out, I just bide my time until I have enough to get the free shipping.

Let’s hope both Ronin and TT/SAE find a way to survive as long as possible.

[thatguamguy]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

There’s validity to your point, but I don’t know if I would say Ronin Flix is more of a successful operation than SAE when you figure in the latter’s CD sales.

That is an equally valid counter-point; I was thinking more of Twilight Time itself.

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by erlinmeyer

From Facebook:
Screen Archives Entertainment
January 22 at 2:35 PM ·
We are sorry to inform you that due to excessive loss and damages, we will now no longer be offering the Media Mail shipping option. All US orders will only be shipped via First Class Mail and Priority Mail Services, which has always been the standard mailing method available on our site. This is based on weight and not able to be chosen for a preference. All currently pending orders with the Media Mail option selected will still ship via this method. We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience.
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Sounds like SAE wasn't bearing the brunt of lost shipments in the first place. Now that they can't transfer the risk to the labels, they don't want to play.

Originally Posted by Screen Archives Entertainment

Glad your shipment arrived in good shape. We pack everything very carefully, but can't control lost or missing packages once they leave our facility. Media mail was the subject of more complaints than any other form of shipping, and labels have virtually quit allowing us to replace lost shipments due to the mail.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

What about insurance then? Does Media Mail cover something that is damaged in the mail?

Insurance is extra: when SAE hiked up their shipping costs a few years ago, they wouldn't replace lost items unless the customer paid the highest shipping rate. There's also the problem that the USPS can inspect parcels in case of prohibited items being sent and they're notorious for not resealing the parcel properly, so it's not unheard of for customers to receive an empty envelope or damaged disc.

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

Yep. Nearly $7.00 to ship two Blus. There are very few titles I need anymore that would justify that kind of gouging. If they need to somehow sneak in additional profit by hiking up shipping fees, that sours me enough to skip their offerings altogether. I’m usually pretty lenient with retailers if they make an effort to meet customers halfway, such as KINO and others who offer a threshold for comped shipping, but this kind of policy and apparent subterfuge is uncalled for and does not present them in a good light. If they need additional revenue to survive as a business, be upfront about it and charge more for the product itself. Their reasoning about the increased shipping may be indeed be sound, but without any evidence to back up their claims, we are being asked to believe it on faith. And I don’t believe it.

Worst case, an 8 oz. first-class package services parcel is $3.67 based on commercial base pricing. Just under a pound it's no more than $5.70.

https://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/Notice123.htm#_c096