Unforgiven 4K UHD (1992)

[brainofj72]

That definitely doesn't look like it's being displayed correctly. But, honestly, I don't think either one of those looks correct. What color tone are you using?

[legends of beyond]

Just Ordered this, along with Logan and Mummy.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

Something I have always feared about UHD BD. HDR is not meant to be used on movies made before it became a thing, especially those shot on film, it doesn't matter how you try to spin it

Dynamic range is measured in stops. Film negatives naturally have about twice the dynamic range as what a 1080p Blu-ray can show. UHD Blu-ray is the first home format that can show the full dynamic range of film, as it can go up to 21 stops. Of course the color gamut of a film negative is also wider than on a Blu-ray, and potential color bit-depth. HDR was absolutely meant for movies shot on film. If some of the first catalog titles are iffy, it's something they will improve upon later. I seem to remember some iffy disks in the first couple years of 1080p Blu-ray too.

[bruceames]

The UHD has quite a bit more detail in it, which is especially noticeable in the wide shots. That's where I really appreciate the upgrade.

As for the color timing, the BD has a warmer tone, but the UHD looks more natural to me. I'm not sure which is more "correct", but I think I prefer the UHD color timing.

The UHD is a little darker. Not a whole lot though. In the darker scenes you can see a little more shadow detail in the BD, but that's a direct result of the difference in brightness. I wouldn't have minded it being a little brighter, but as it is it looks fine to me.

Overall I think it's a worthy upgrade, especially because of the added detail.

Oh, and that horrible EE at the start of chapter 17 is also on the BD. It only last for a few seconds although on the tower it stays that way throughout the shot. Funny that no one noticed it before on the BD (at least that I know of).

I haven't really compared it enough (only watched the first half hour) to see what difference HDR makes, but so far it seems pretty subtle.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

Yes but that aesthetic decision is made BECAUSE of HDR, so my point still stands..

Before mid 2015 HDR wasn't even a thing for movies, now they try to apply it on everything shot in the last 100 years. Sometimes they use it mildly but sometimes they force the issue..

In any case, it's completely unnecessary and risky

"Simply put, dynamic range is the range of accessible light that a particular camera sensor can “see,” and it is often measured in something called stops. The more stops of light that a camera's sensor can see, the higher the dynamic range." - definition of HDR from Joshua Lockhart

For the record, film negatives have about 14 stops of dynamic range. Blu-ray, which is a SDR format can reproduce only 6 steps of dynamic range. Since UHD can show all 14 steps, it is considered high dynamic range.

Nothing unnecessary or risky about it, the new remastered Blu-ray and new UHD were just graded very differently, probably by different people. Some viewers think that the way they graded the regular blu-ray is preferable, while others prefer the UHD grade's look. It's all up to whoever is choosing how they want it to look on a home video format.

People that grade catalog films for UHD and Blu-ray aren't always going for 'closest to 35 mm color grade', often times they like to get creative. Most releases probably have some goofy tints added digitally, and likely a bit too much DNR for my preference. You can make a transfer that's darker on UHD, and another one that's brighter on Blu-ray. It's 100% stylistic choice, not faulty HDR.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

It'll also be interesting to see if people see a difference between the HDR10 "Unforgiven" disc and the DV copy on VUDU.

I'd guess the Dolby Vision VUDU copy has excellent shadow details, which is an area where people seem to be agreeing that the UHD BD falters. I'd guess it has a better color grade too, I wonder if it's also brighter overall. Seems like this film got three different grades by three different people, for three different formats. I hope someone does compare the new VUDU UHD copy vs UHD BD and add their comments here. I've read you can already redeem the VUDU copy free if you buy the UHD BD, so I hope the feedback comes quickly.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by brian9229

The hdr just feels weird. Besides being extremely dark, the cold tone is just seemingly at odds with the whole film. These pics definitely are not proper screenshots, just hi-rez pics with no doctoring of any kind. Just to show a very generalized difference. Which isn't hard to see. Should I have to keep shutting down the hdr to enjoy these uhd discs? More times than not, it just looks totally off. I'm certainly loving the new transfer though, minus the hdr, for now anyway.

Don't take this as an attack please, but it looks like that because the KU6290 doesn't have the color or nits to properly display Warner discs. I went though this myself with the pretty much same TV, the KU6300, before I upgraded. Warner discs were all notoriously rough for that TV, because they are mastered at a higher nits level and whatnot.

[ArnoldLayne56]

Originally Posted by legends of beyond

Just Ordered this, along with Logan and Mummy.

So Munny and Mummy?

[philochs]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

They're certainly making sure this format stays niche.

In three years, when PS5 and Xbox Two come out with UHD Blu-ray, and new standalone UHD players are relatively cheap, it will really help boost the format. By then, some new PCs and 4K laptops will carry UHD Blu-ray drives. There is currently no Nvidia or AMD support for UHD Blu-ray on PC, you have to have a brand new Intel Core i5 or Core i7 Kaby Lake cpu with built in graphics, so also no enthusiast grade Intel Kaby CPUs. The specs needed for building a 4K HTPC with proper UHD Blu-ray support will be a lot easier to meet by then. HDR formats will finally be finalized for the format by then, even forthcoming HDMI 2.1 based HDR formats. There will be some truly bargain deal disks by then.

Lastly, we are expected to go from a nation where currently 16% of the homes have at least one 4K tv that may or may not have good HDR, to a country where 50% of homes have at least one 4K tv. So I would be willing to bet someone a lot of money that 4K UHD Blu-ray won't really be niche by 2020-2021, it'll go mainstream.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by Filmmaker

(*sigh*) As far as I'm concerned, everyone who is stating that the BD is clearly brighter than the UHD is either mad or lying. To be sure, during nighttime footage, this film is DARK--oppressively so, in fact--but the BD is every bit as buried in blackness as the UHD. I took some quick-and-dirty iPhone comparison shots of daylight footage (title frame excepted) to give an idea of the coloration variance. Top shots are BD, bottom are UHD.

I looked at your screen caps, and on my display, the UHD versions are considerably darker. I'm not mad, or lying. I wonder how the Dolby Vision version looks, I'd love some screen shot comparisons between that and the UHD BD.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by Filmmaker

The BD is on top, the UHD on bottom. Clearly, the UHD is leagues more detailed and actually LESS dark than the BD. On the second comparison, I cranked the brightness on my pics to maximum so you can see how much more imagery is present on the UHD. This argument is squashed as far as I'm concerned. The BD has nothing to be ashamed of but the UHD flattens it.

You're giving us mixed signals, man. In your first set of pics, the UHD was darker, and the colors appeared a bit muted. In your second set of photos, the UHD is clearer and brighter. Does it change on a scene by scene basis, or what?

[philochs]

Originally Posted by brian9229

The hdr just feels weird. Besides being extremely dark, the cold tone is just seemingly at odds with the whole film. These pics definitely are not proper screenshots, just hi-rez pics with no doctoring of any kind. Just to show a very generalized difference. Which isn't hard to see. Should I have to keep shutting down the hdr to enjoy these uhd discs? More times than not, it just looks totally off. I'm certainly loving the new transfer though, minus the hdr, for now anyway.]

From your photos, it looks like there's a teal tint in the HDR metadata, and stripping the metadata takes away the wcg grading including the tint, or what? If there's a digital tint on the UHD HDR then it could cause the transfer to appear darker, right? An odd stylistic choice to make it look that way with HDR enabled, no? This is confusing.

[freinhar]

I've never seen Unforgiven - never realised it was held in such universal critical acclaim until I checked out some reviews recently! I was going to grab the UHD Blu-ray, but it looks to be out of stock everywhere.

Has anyone checked out the movie on Vudu in Dolby Vision yet? Based on the conflicting reports about the UHD Blu-ray, and my inability to purchase it at the moment, I'm tempted to rent it on Vudu and see what it looks like. If I were to do so, would anyone care for some screen caps of the Vudu DV version? What are some time codes I should look out for?

[philochs]

Originally Posted by freinhar

Has anyone checked out the movie on Vudu in Dolby Vision yet? I'm tempted to rent it on Vudu and see what it looks like. If I were to do so, would anyone care for some screen caps of the Vudu DV version? What are some time codes I should look out for?

Yes, I want to see some Dolby Vision screen caps, the more the merrier. Don't have time codes for you, but maybe try and take pictures from the same scenes people have already chosen to upload from the UHD Blu-ray. Thanks a lot for offering. I'd buy a 2017 Sony OLED this year if it had 120hz native and HDMI 2.1. I actually am getting a $5000.00 check from a class action lawsuit soon, and if I wasn't going to London for an extended vacation instead, I'd get a 65-inch Sony A1E.

First world problems. At least I can go to the Laser IMAX screen they have in London, not the biggest screen size though. But I skipped out on doing that last time I was in London a couple years ago when their Laser Imax was brand new. BFI Imax is still a 'lie-max' it was supposed to go laser too, but not yet. Anyway, I digress. Vudu UHD w/ Dolby Vision screen caps please!

[Khronikos]

Originally Posted by bruceames

The UHD has quite a bit more detail in it, which is especially noticeable in the wide shots. That's where I really appreciate the upgrade.

As for the color timing, the BD has a warmer tone, but the UHD looks more natural to me. I'm not sure which is more "correct", but I think I prefer the UHD color timing.

The UHD is a little darker. Not a whole lot though. In the darker scenes you can see a little more shadow detail in the BD, but that's a direct result of the difference in brightness. I wouldn't have minded it being a little brighter, but as it is it looks fine to me.

Overall I think it's a worthy upgrade, especially because of the added detail.

Oh, and that horrible EE at the start of chapter 17 is also on the BD. It only last for a few seconds although on the tower it stays that way throughout the shot. Funny that no one noticed it before on the BD (at least that I know of).

I haven't really compared it enough (only watched the first half hour) to see what difference HDR makes, but so far it seems pretty subtle.

Are we sure this is not just due to camera effects with the lighting?

[Khronikos]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Dafuq is going on in them pictures? I know we joking call EE 'force fields' but that literally looks like a cloaking device is playing up on the wind vane thingy:

Dear lord what is that lol?

[Khronikos]

Originally Posted by smackrabbit

I can't tell you how many other scenes it happens in if any, just that it is there in that scene on both discs. I'm not going to watch it again to search for more cases, either.

Well can we get a timestamp to test on the old bluray? That looks a tad concerning there IMO.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Dafuq is going on in them pictures? I know we joking call EE 'force fields' but that literally looks like a cloaking device is playing up on the wind vane thingy:

[Vertizontal]

That force field shot is scary!! Has anyone checked the original BD/digibook release to see if it was present on that transfer (just curious)? Even with that ugly ringing, EE on roids moment, I've read enough and viewed the other posted pics (thanks to all) and think I WILL pick this up (if I can find it on a shelf, ahem, WB ) and try to remember to simply always watch this in SDR (based on the pics shared, that looks more natural/easier on the eyes).

[Filmmaker]

Originally Posted by philochs

You're giving us mixed signals, man. In your first set of pics, the UHD was darker, and the colors appeared a bit muted. In your second set of photos, the UHD is clearer and brighter. Does it change on a scene by scene basis, or what?

No mixed signals at all. My first set of photos was a series of daytime shots, which are less saturated, more naturalistic in color on the UHD. The shot I updated later was an example of how the discs handle deep, dark nighttime photography and the UHD clearly trounces the BD with not nearly as many crushed blacks and substantially sharper details.

EDIT: In fact, if you go back and look at the wall that says "saloon" in that last photo, even in the comparative murk and crush of the BD, you can see that it's more color saturated than the UHD.