HDR Discussion Thread

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

What he's saying is that the point of dynamic metadata is there to properly adjust the APL in lower light scenes just as much as it's there to preserve detail in brighter scenes, which is what the Samsung demo footage mostly contained. Mostly.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

The vast majority of AVS members have actually stated that the difference between DV and HDR10 is very subtle.

On all of three titles on early hardware

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...10-summit.html

A bit more detail on dynamic metadata....

Glad to see more than one reporter heeded my advice and covered presentations from the summit - https://hdguru.com/qled-conference-q...ket-dominance/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

early hardware....

Like so ?

Jim James - State Of The Art (A.E.I.O.U.) - Official Video - YouTube

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Glad to see more than one reporter heeded my advice and covered presentations from the summit - https://hdguru.com/qled-conference-q...ket-dominance/

“So, the future of television sales seems to be headed toward mid-level brightness HDR for the mainstream and a handful of models with OLED and next-generation QLED technologies (or, perhaps, hybrids) among the small, though more profitable, premium end.”

We know low nit displays perform better with dynamic metadata.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Those are the same simple graphs from a prior SMPTE presentation on dynamic metadata which was also chaired by a Samsung bod. And, as I said then, those graphs are using 500 nits as their reference so while better mapping is indeed VITAL for low nit displays to render HDR properly it still doesn't address - as you yourself asked in that thread - the kind of difference that dynamic will make on a high nit display with good mapping, say 1500+ nits' worth...

Well Geoff you nailed it (without realizing it ). While we were fighting over dynamic metadata on high nit displays, it was the lower nit displays that were the real Samsung target.

[Penton-Man]

DanBa, any news on how it went with that HDR Carmen opera broadcast from France which you previously linked - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...g#post13793586

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Any chance of some lottery numbers?

Gah, another mention of Disney and HDR (well, EDR) in the same sentence. Wants it on DISC I do!!

I’m thinking this mid cap stock from DanBa’s neck of the woods should pop up on/around August 25th ….
https://www.google.com/search?q=nico...hrome&ie=UTF-8

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

On a side note, John Lasseter is one of the best bosses there is . After Big Hero 6 was completed, he gave many members of the team a long sabbatical off from the job. I don't believe that fact was reported in the news media or any internet forum.

Any of you SoCal locals attending dee D on Friday from 2:30-4:30 P.M.? - https://d23.com/d23-expo-2017-friday-july-14/

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by StayingSalty

Was one of the Sonys the ZD series? Was a Dolby Vision disk or content played. I am try to determine if dynamic metadata displays more detail in light and dark scenes on a good tone mapping high nit display. Both Dolby and Samsung imply it, but I cannot find any definitive proof. A professional eye witness account would be appreciated.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post54165089

Originally Posted by ARROW-AV

There was both a SONY A1E OLED and SONY ZD9/Z9D present at the THX training classes and yes Dolby Vision content was used. The Dolby Vision logo appeared on the LG OLED, which was used first, verifying that the content was Dolby Vision. ....

They also covered HDR10+ but the jury is still out regarding just how much (or little) realworld consumer content support for that is actually going to manifest, where we are somewhat expecting that format to be supported to the same degree as consumer native AURO 3D audio.

Hence, sorry to say but we can't really comment other than to point out that with respect to both extended HDR formats, namely Dolby Vision and HDR10+, the primary considerable advantage is the fact that the tone-mapping grading can be optimized frame-by-frame as opposed to one single setting that affects the whole movie. So think of it as comparing the luminence of OLED TVs as compared with full-field-panel-back-lit/edge-lit LCD TVs where with the former there is the ability to control it at the individual pixel level but with the latter it's a single luminance boost that affects the whole image to the same degree. Where as far as comparative performance potentials are concerned with respect to this particular aspect there is quite simply no contest.

Therefore, RE: "I am try to determine if dynamic metadata displays more detail in light and dark scenes on a good tone mapping high nit display." the answer to this is that YES there is indubitably the potential for both Dolby Vision and HDR10+ to yield significantly superior performance with respect to both shadow detail and bright highlights performance with HDR video content, because the tone-mapping grading can be optimized frame-by-frame, so with low APL scenes it can be optimized for shadow detail but with high APL scenes it can have vastly different settings that are optimized for bright highlights, so with video content that has both low and high APL scenes it's possible to have both displayed optimally, but with HDR10 you can only have one fixed setting for the whole movie, where all current HDR10 video content, particularly 4K UHD HDR Blu-Rays, have a fixed clipping point that varies massively from 1,000 nits with some movies to 4,000 nits on others. This is why there is a variability with respect to overall luminance from movie to movie, where some movies will look overall darker than others, where the only way to play everything back optimally with HDR10 is to either make use of an adjustment feature on the source player (e.g. the Dynamic Contrast slider on the Panasonic DMP-UB900 Blu-Ray Player) or display device (e.g. the similar slider on Sony and JVC projectors) or calibrate different presets on your display device, one optimized for 1,000nits clipping point, another for 2,000nits, another for 3,000nits, and another for 4,000nits. However, even though these will allow for HDR10 content to be played back optimally, despite the fact it's a royal pain in the arse having to manually adjust settings movie-by-movie, you are still not going to achieve the full potential of what Dolby Vision and HDR10+ can achieve. That said, just how much of a perceivable difference actually exists between the Dolby Vision/HDR10+ version and HDR10 version will vary from title to title and depend upon both how good a job has been done grading the movie and what is the APL dynamic range of the particular movie.

An interesting comment on HDR10+. So it seems that dynamic metadata can improve the picture on a high nit display. Geoff D, the definitive word rests on your observations once your Sony gets DV .

[StingingVelvet]

That last paragraph there seems to be doing the whole "HDR 10 can't change brightness" thing that confused so many for so long. He's actually talking about the nits cap, 1,000 or 4,000 and whatnot, but the way it's written confuses people into thinking HDR 10 has a static brightness level the whole movie. Not even normal BD has that.

So again we go down the road of my set showing clear definitions up to 6,000 nits and just how big a difference would dynamic metadata be and blah blah blah.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

That last paragraph there seems to be doing the whole "HDR 10 can't change brightness" thing that confused so many for so long. He's actually talking about the nits cap, 1,000 or 4,000 and whatnot, but the way it's written confuses people into thinking HDR 10 has a static brightness level the whole movie. Not even normal BD has that.

So again we go down the road of my set showing clear definitions up to 6,000 nits and just how big a difference would dynamic metadata be and blah blah blah.

I believe this chap is a British calibrator. Perhaps Geoff D has heard if him.

My take is it can, but it “depends upon both how good a job has been done grading the movie and what is the APL dynamic range of the particular movie”.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

I believe this chap is a British calibrator. Perhaps Geoff D has heard if him.

Wow, he and D-Nice really went at it on the previous page and I dare say the Brit outperformed dee nice in the back and forth debate.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

My take is it can, but it “depends upon both how good a job has been done grading the movie...

I wouldn’t have termed it quite so judgmentally, see –
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post13712531

[Penton-Man]

Salty, best inform all those calibrator boys and their fans no matter which nation or state they hail from, unless being intentional isolationists, that they can get info about the shootout directly from the horse’s mouth, Robert Z., here on this latest page – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...=289076&page=5

and that Robert, one way or another, did score a BVM-X300 as advised - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...l#post13337836 …. better choice than a Dolby Maui or Sim.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

calibrator boys

As a sidebar, in busy post facilities grading and mastering movies stops for no one. When monitors need to be re-calibrated because they drift, or for whatever technical reason, calibrators do their thing when everyone else’s work is done….think after hours. I don't envy those guys at all.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

calibrator boys....I don't envy those guys at all.

Be they be in house employees (despite having good benefits, e.g. health, dental) or if the work is outsourced to visiting independent contractors who come in to tweak at smaller, less busy post houses.

[Penton-Man]

Anyway, to the Brits, a reminder regarding -
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...m#post13759568

in Oxfordshire tomorrow is “Predicting the Explosion in Advance: BAFTA Winning Planet Earth II”.

[Penton-Man]

Chapeau to Maryline et al. for a job well done characterized by truly innovative experiments and the highest scientific testing methods and materials among your palmarès as pictured below:

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Maryline et al.

You all did

Sean Rowe - "To Leave Something Behind" - YouTube