HDR Discussion Thread

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Just to play devil's advocate but this could have been due to an overly optimistic Samsung employee saying this during NAB 2016 because he heard that they were working on a firmware update. Samsung was likely working on a firmware update but after testing difficult scenes they might have realized that the processor in their 2016 HDR TVs wasn't good enough. That would explain why there was talk about a firmware update during NAB 2016 but Samsung got very quiet about it during the second half of 2016.

They showed a demo of this technology on one of their 2016 or 2015 TVs.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

postPerspective

Quick note, for those unfamiliar with pp’s YouTube channel -

HPA 2017 Mark Weingartner, ASC - YouTube

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

They showed a demo of this technology on one of their 2016 or 2015 TVs.

Samsung had a demo for dynamic metadata to show how it would look better on a HDR TV but they could have used two videos. Have one video with a brightness range larger than the HDR TV which was used for static metadata and than have a second video which had been processed with dynamic metadata to match the brightness range of the HDR TV which was used for dynamic metadata. That would be my guess since using two videos would be much safer than using beta firmware and/or using a hardware altered HDR TV. While companies are greedy my guess is that it was an example of arrogance. Samsung thought they could get dynamic metadata to work with the SoC they used on their 2016 HDR TVs but after testing it with difficult scenes they found out that it wasn't good enough.

[Penton-Man]

SMPTE quarterly meetings wrapping today. ITU coming up…..https://www.itu.int/md/R15-WP6C-C/en

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

SMPTE quarterly meetings wrapping today. ITU coming up…..https://www.itu.int/md/R15-WP6C-C/en

Some interesting sounding documents and I notice that proposal for going with a single method of floating point signal representation. I never did see the purpose of having two methods since that seems like it would only cause problems.

[DanBa]

HDMI 2.1 & Dynamic HDR
https://cepro.ehmedia.co/webinar-registration11706805

[DanBa]

There are many possible ways to use SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata:

[The purpose of SMPTE ST 2094 is to enable adaptation of a video signal to a smaller color volume of the consumer TV.
Display adaptation is the adaptation of a video signal to a smaller color volume of the consumer TV driven by the metadata.]

. (Dolby) SMPTE ST 2094-10 dynamic metadata:
.. Live broadcasting:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post49795977

10-bit PQ content >> broadcast network >> ST 2094-10 compliant set-top box: HEVC decoding > 10-bit PQ uncompressed video + ST 2086 static metadata + ST 2094-10 dynamic metadata >> HDMI 2.1 >> Dolby Vision TV capable of receiving ST 2094-10 dynamic metadata: display adaptation > display

10-bit PQ content >> broadcast network >> Dolby Vision TV capable of receiving the broadcast signal and ST 2094-10 dynamic metadata: HEVC decoding > display adaptation > display

To my knowledge, there is no such broadcast network for the time being.










.. Active HDR with Dolby Vision: an HDR10 display adaptation
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post50857057

HDR10 disc > UHD Blu-ray player: HEVC decoding > 10-bit PQ uncompressed video + CTA HDR10 static metadata >> HDMI 2.0a >> Active HDR TV: ST 2094-10 dynamic metadata created on-the-fly by Active HDR > Dolby Vision display adaptation > display


. (Philips) SMPTE ST 2094-20 dynamic metadata:
http://www.ip.philips.com/licensing/...hdr-technology



Philips HDR disc > Philips HDR compliant UHD Blu-ray player: HEVC decoding > TV display adaptation driven by UHD Blu-ray Philips dynamic metadata / ST 2094-20 dynamic metadata > 10-bit PQ uncompressed video + CTA HDR10 static metadata >> HDMI 2.0a >> HDR10-compliant TV: only display

[No display adaptation is carried out by the TV because the color volume of the TV matches that of the incoming video signal.]

To my knowledge, there is no information about works on Philips HDR disc or Philips HDR compliant UHD Blu-ray player for the time being.

UHD Blu-ray Philips dynamic metadata and ST 2094-20 dynamic metadata are likely the same leaving out the standardization differences.
UHD Blu-ray specifications was completed before the completion of SMPTE ST 2094.


. (Technicolor) SMPTE ST 2094-30 dynamic metadata (& (Philips) ST 2094-20):
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post49682777
http://www.technicolor.com/en/who-we...n-technologies
http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts/...33v010101p.pdf

" Advanced HDR [i.e. SDR-to-HDR upconversion + Technicolor HDR] is a universal distribution system supporting all formats of HDR."
https://twitter.com/Technicolor/stat...35919490146304





10-bit PQ content >> broadcast / broadband network >> ST 2094-30/20 compliant set-top box: HEVC decoding > TV display adaptation driven by ST 2094-30/20 dynamic metadata > 10-bit PQ uncompressed video + CTA HDR10 static metadata >> HDMI 2.0a >> HDR10 TV: only display

10-bit PQ content >> IP network >> Technicolor HDR-compliant TV: HEVC decoding > display adaptation driven by ST 2094-30/20 dynamic metadata > display

To my knowledge, there is no such operational distribution system for the time being.


. (Samsung) SMPTE ST 2094-40 dynamic metadata:
https://www.avforums.com/news/samsun...ces-2017.13282
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post51330169

Samsung’s Dynamic HDR is going to be called HDR10+.

"Colorfront Transkoder 2017 is the latest release of Colorfront's standalone mastering system for UHDTV, HDR, and digital cinema and production. The version 2017 is now in preview, and is currently on track to a NAB 2017 launch and a spring release.
Working with HDR10, HDR10+, Dolby Vision, PQ and HLG variable encoding, the latest toolset in the Colorfront Transkoder system allows mastering for any and all of these formats, in the most efficient way.
The latest toolset will be unveiled, dealing with SMPTE ST 2094-xx dynamic metadata."
http://colorfront.com/email_hpa2017.html

Apparently, there is no leaked information about an update of Ultra HD Blu-ray specifications at least for the time being (i.e. Ultra HD Blu-ray only compatible with HDR10, Dolby Vision and Philips HDR).

HDR10+ content >> IP network >> HDR10+ compliant TV: HEVC decoding > display adaptation > display

HDR10+ content >> IP network >> HDR10+ compliant media player: HEVC decoding > 10-bit PQ uncompressed video + ST 2086 static metadata + ST 2094-40 dynamic metadata >> HDMI 2.1 >> HDR10+ compliant TV: display adaptation > display

[Yojimbo68]

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Yojimbo68

Ouch!
Yo, Yojimbo, don’t blow your mind with trying to process all the details all at once for the mastering and delivery of HDR….just grab your camera and provide us with well exposed images ….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zXiyIu-nXQ#t=47m34s....
and we’ll take care of the rest.

Or, if you’re in need of some serious R&R after Dan’s compilation and just want to kick back at a Dolby Cinema to rest those synapses, Yehya has a new recommendation for your pleasure….

Talkin' About the Movie with Yehya – Kong: Skull Island - YouTube

[HeatEquation]

A poster on AVS claims he emailed some of his "contacts" from Samsung (product development manager and a couple of engineers) and they said HDR10+ would be supported by both the 2016 and 2017 models, but only via streaming. Only the 2018 models, which will ship with HDMI 2.1, will be capable of supporting HDR10+ through blu ray.

Remains to be seen how credible that is.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by DanBa

(Dolby) SMPTE ST 2094-10 dynamic metadata:
.. Live broadcasting:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post49795977
...

Dolby's idea for metadata creation at the encoder helps to reduce complexity though it could also be done at the TV. Dolby does offer a simple solution but considering the royalties I don't know if their solution makes sense from a broadcaster perspective.

Originally Posted by DanBa

" Advanced HDR [i.e. SDR-to-HDR upconversion + Technicolor HDR] is a universal distribution system supporting all formats of HDR."

Technicolor does a good job of publishing articles on their website about the Advanced HDR format though they promote the idea that you don't need HDR cameras to use their format. Even in their test of a hybrid HDR production only 8 of the 28 sources came from HDR cameras. Still the biggest issue with Advanced HDR is that so far they have only managed to get a single CE company to support it.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

4K and/or HDR camp fire imagery is a popular sample sequence chosen for testing by professional working groups of leading standards organizations…

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Talkin' About the Movie with Yehya – Kong: Skull Island - YouTube

So, wrt movies trending on twitter and such, what’s that?... the top 3 having HDR theatrical releases…http://pro.boxoffice.com/twitter/today/

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Dolby's idea for metadata creation at the encoder helps to reduce complexity though it could also be done at the TV. Dolby does offer a simple solution but considering the royalties I don't know if their solution makes sense from a broadcaster perspective.

Royalties shouldn't make anymore difference than a broadcaster using Dolby E and Dolby AC-3/AC-4 for the sound.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Dolby's idea for metadata creation at the encoder helps to reduce complexity though it could also be done at the TV. Dolby does offer a simple solution but considering the royalties I don't know if their solution makes sense from a broadcaster perspective.

I think you are right that it doesn’t make sense. Real-time creation of dynamic metadata can be done at the TV like with Active HDR with Dolby Vision: no change at the encoder, and modern TV are compuTV growing with the Moore's law (i.e. doubling of processor performance every 18 months).
DVB / ATSC people should have the same rationale when deciding to specify a simple PQ format with no metadata. The manual color correction controls of the legacy Dolby Vision system are missing, but it should be enough for real-time HDR live broadcasting.

Anyway, I think that there is "no royalty-free" Dynamic HDR because a lot of Dolby patents on dynamic metadata are already filed. In the end, it has to be paid for somehow.
It is quite normal that workers have to be paid.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Royalties shouldn't make anymore difference than a broadcaster using Dolby E and Dolby AC-3/AC-4 for the sound.

A lot of people are concerned with Dolby licensing fees.

But

"You may hear about one other difference between Dolby Vision and HDR10. Some people will point out that TV manufacturers pay to have Dolby Vision in their displays, while HDR10 is free. While that’s true, the difference isn’t significant.
The royalty cost to add Dolby Vision ranges from less than $3 per TV to lower than $2 per TV."
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dolby...ar-giles-baker

and

TCL delivers Dolby Vision for under $500.
http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...2hWDc3WwBTm.99

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

So, wrt movies trending on twitter and such, what’s that?... the top 3 having HDR theatrical releases…http://pro.boxoffice.com/twitter/today/

Dang, that list moves fast! Looks like Wonder Woman just knocked Kong out of the top 3.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

….just grab your camera and provide us with well exposed images ….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zXiyIu-nXQ#t=47m34s....

One point of that ^ link is that even if some of you guys aren’t camera people per se….be aware that the teaching of the how-to’s and wherefore’s of HDR acquisition is quickly gaining momentum around the world at the grass roots level, e.g., coming up in NYC next Wednesday….https://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/ev...ls.jsp/id/2480

[StingingVelvet]

Had the Gangster Squad commentary on tonight and heard the director mention that the dynamic range of digital cameras is really bad and that they always have to CG in detail to highlights like fire and windows to make up for all the clipped detail. Makes me wonder how much of the stuff HDR shows over BD is CG!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Had the Gangster Squad commentary on tonight and heard the director mention that the dynamic range of digital cameras is really bad....

I tend to disagree with that ^ conclusion with the aid of an illustration from last summer…

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

ICYMI, since I included the heads-up to readers in your neck of the woods below the YouTube clip - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=1321, I recommend you attend the Philadelphia Section SMPTE meeting on HDR and pay attention to what Hugo has to say about that. Afterwards, if you still believe that the dynamic range of modern digital cameras is “really bad”, then I suggest you confront him with your opinion during the Q&A.

The technical challenge for modern single sensor digital cameras with their exemplary dynamic range is actually to manage noise….without the camera becoming very expensive.