HDR Discussion Thread

[Zhorik]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

No set does 4,000 nits anyway. The difference is only between them lowering it in the mastering stage versus your set mapping the higher levels.

Okay, but the end game (at least in the short term) is for commercial TV to reach 4000 nits, right? Once that happens, would the currently 1000 nit UHD Blu-Ray's need to be replaced (another way of asking, would the HDR10 peak be increased to 4000 nits) or will HDR10 permanently be limited to 1000 nits?

I don't mind repurchase, as long as I know about it.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Zhorik

Okay, but the end game (at least in the short term) is for commercial TV to reach 4000 nits, right? Once that happens, would the currently 1000 nit UHD Blu-Ray's need to be replaced (another way of asking, would the HDR10 peak be increased to 4000 nits) or will HDR10 permanently be limited to 1000 nits?

I don't mind repurchase, as long as I know about it.

HDR10 as an EOTF can already go up to 10000 nits, hence discs from Warners, Sony and Lionsgate being mastered with 4000-nit maximum brightness metadata virtually from the start of the UHD disc format. For the other current discs which are mastered to the 1000-nit peak they will still work just fine on a 4000-nit display, and some manufacturers already 'map' that 1000-nit image to the brighter capability of their respective >1000-nit displays e.g. Sony.

[DanBa]

"LG Electronics will include ATSC 3.0 tuners in all of its 4KTVs sold in South Korea beginning later this year.
"We’ll include our latest generation of ATSC 3.0 chip—it will include both 1.0 and 3.0 demodulation.""
http://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/00...is-year/281038
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...c#post13166095

[Zhorik]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

HDR10 as an EOTF can already go up to 10000 nits, hence discs from Warners, Sony and Lionsgate being mastered with 4000-nit maximum brightness metadata virtually from the start of the UHD disc format. For the other current discs which are mastered to the 1000-nit peak they will still work just fine on a 4000-nit display, and some manufacturers already 'map' that 1000-nit image to the brighter capability of their respective >1000-nit displays e.g. Sony.

Thank you. That clarifies.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Zhorik

Thank you. That clarifies.

Geoff is always good at clarifying the tech stuff. I'll just add there probably will come a day when 4,000 nit sets are common and people discuss the "limited" early discs mastered at 1,000, but whether it really makes much difference, who knows. I doubt it would enough to justify re-releases.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

This Dolby Vision stuff is only going to get more nauseating when people who have lower-spec TVs get the Dolby Vision update and start saying what a massive improvement it is, assuming everyone "stuck with" HDR 10 is seeing what they used to see. We aren't, because our TVs meet HDR 10 spec. Now YOU are seeing what we ALREADY saw. Yet that fact will be drowned out by the Dolby Vision hallelujah.

Are you saying that your Samsung TV would not have an improved presentation if it could do Dolby Vision? Why did Samsung develope HDR10+ then?

I want the best/accurate picture possible. I am all for HDR10+ for those disks that don’t have DV in the future. I will not buy a 4K TV or player that does not support all the HDR formats that may be on the Blu-rays over the next year or two. I have purchased ten 4K Blu-ray disks and only one would I rebuy if it came out with an upgraded HDR. I understand that HDR10 can look fantastic.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

Are you saying that your Samsung TV would not have an improved presentation if it could do Dolby Vision? Why did Samsung develope HDR10+ then?

Dynamic metadata might improve a bit on highlights with discs mastered above my 1400 max nits, but the KS8000 has good tone mapping so honestly I'm not sure it would be some massive difference or anything. As said already by Geoff, Bruce and others the main appeal of dynamic metadata is to compensate for lower nits and worse color volume and tone mapping. Even the slide shown above shows that is the goal, and the dynamic metadata won't even kick in unless it's needed.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

People seem to forget that DV looks to be 12 bit, 4:2:2 on disc. It's not just about the dynamic metadata.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

People seem to forget that DV looks to be 12 bit, 4:2:2 on disc. It's not just about the dynamic metadata.

Are you sure DV is 4:2:2 on disc? You can't fault people's memories because there are no consumer grade 12 bit displays available yet. People are far more interested in how DV will look on their current display or one they are considering, rather than how DV discs will look in 3-4 years on 12 bit displays of the future.

[DanBa]

More bits less noises: the Sony Z9D has a 14-bit internal video processing.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by DanBa

More bits less noises: the Sony Z9D has a 14-bit internal video processing.

Wow I didn't know that. I thought all the HDR panels so far were 10 bit max. Z9D owners will sure be pleased when they get that DV upgrade.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Dynamic metadata might improve a bit on highlights with discs mastered above my 1400 max nits, but the KS8000 has good tone mapping so honestly I'm not sure it would be some massive difference or anything. As said already by Geoff, Bruce and others the main appeal of dynamic metadata is to compensate for lower nits and worse color volume and tone mapping. Even the slide shown above shows that is the goal, and the dynamic metadata won't even kick in unless it's needed.

I think there is more to it. One of Samsung’s HDR10+ demos showed more detail in the shadows/darker areas compared to HDR10 as I recall. I don’t think they would be going to all this expense for HDR10+ if they felt that dynamic metadata was no big deal and therefore somewhat concerned about DV. I’m sure we will know more after Samsung’s presentation in Hollywood in the coming weeks.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bruceames

Wow I didn't know that. I thought all the HDR panels so far were 10 bit max. Z9D owners will sure be pleased when they get that DV upgrade.

The panel IS still 10-bit but Sony have been overdriving the bit depth on their processing for years, it's why they've got such an effective Smooth Gradation feature (although that needed the new X1E processor in order to do it for 4K signals). Even the DVP-S790 Sony Blu-ray player had a 14-bit output that could be selected.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

Are you saying that your Samsung TV would not have an improved presentation if it could do Dolby Vision? Why did Samsung develope HDR10+ then?

I want the best/accurate picture possible. I am all for HDR10+ for those disks that don’t have DV in the future. I will not buy a 4K TV or player that does not support all the HDR formats that may be on the Blu-rays over the next year or two. I have purchased ten 4K Blu-ray disks and only one would I rebuy if it came out with an upgraded HDR. I understand that HDR10 can look fantastic.

Why does any company develop a proprietary solution to x problem?

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by bruceames

Are you sure DV is 4:2:2 on disc? You can't fault people's memories because there are no consumer grade 12 bit displays available yet. People are far more interested in how DV will look on their current display or one they are considering, rather than how DV discs will look in 3-4 years on 12 bit displays of the future.

Well I am one who does think about the future. Seems to me if we can buy a disk now that in encoded to 12 bits, we don’t have to worry about rebuying it the future. I did read an article that the DV 12 bit encode will show a slight improvement even on a 10 bit panel. I also read that 4:2:2 was confirmed for DV disk.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Why does any company develop a proprietary solution to x problem?

Yes, but Samsung's HDR1+ is open source.

[Geoff D]

Which they will offer up to everyone for free...for a nominal fee.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

I think there is more to it. One of Samsung’s HDR10+ demos showed more detail in the shadows/darker areas compared to HDR10 as I recall. I don’t think they would be going to all this expense for HDR10+ if they felt that dynamic metadata was no big deal and therefore somewhat concerned about DV. I’m sure we will know more after Samsung’s presentation in Hollywood in the coming weeks.

+1

HDR10 is an incomplete HDR format: one of the 3 fundamental HDR building blocks (i.e. SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata adaptation for consistent visual) is missing.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...intent&page=19

HDR10 =~ SMPTE ST 2084 PQ + SMPTE ST 2086 static metadata

Dynamic HDR like "Dolby Vision" or HDR10 Plus = SMPTE ST 2084 PQ + SMPTE ST 2086 static metadata + SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata adaptation for consistent visual




"Anyway, all that talk about best tone mapping only show the big mess HDR10 is.

How could they release a format without having a standardized tone mapping. The result is so bad that even 2 calibrated TV from 2 different manufacturer won't show the same picture.

Sony are most likely better at tone mapping HDR10 because of their huge experience in movie business.

More content from Dolby Vision can't come fast enough. Not only DV have scene by scene metadata, but also have a standardized high quality tone mapping for all their TV. This mean this is not the manufacturer job to create tone map algorithm, but Dolby. This is the biggest feature for me."
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post53066298

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

Well I am one who does think about the future. Seems to me if we can buy a disk now that in encoded to 12 bits, we don’t have to worry about rebuying it the future. I did read an article that the DV 12 bit encode will show a slight improvement even on a 10 bit panel. I also read that 4:2:2 was confirmed for DV disk.

How many times have I heard that. Nothing is really future proof as far as media is concerned. It will only get better and better.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by bruceames

How many times have I heard that. Nothing is really future proof as far as media is concerned. It will only get better and better.

You are correct, but I am thinking along the line of just 4K Blu-rays. Seems like the next year or two will firm it up for 10 years of so. Or am I being naïve? How many unknown unknowns do we have?