HDR is crayons

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

Thought it was obvious I was joking with the bukkake comment and all.

Nope, sorry. That comment could be taken seriously, as well, and combined with your lack of protest or explanation at my comparison of your argument, I missed the sarcasm. It did surprise me because I know you're smarter than that.

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by JohnCarpenterFan

Blu-rays can still look amazing on high-end displays/projectors. Usually, the problem is with the display rather than the disc itself. I've never seen anybody with an OLED complain about how flat Blu-rays look unless the disc was poorly mastered to begin with.

Reminds me of a while back, I had to make do with a calibrated LED for home viewing and while some discs looked great, I noticed plenty of ones which I knew looked amazing on high-end displays, appeared flat and washed out on the LED.

I think the issue is likely due to TV limitations, especially in regard to SDR settings. I remember trying to watch some remastered Warner Blu-rays on the LED I had at the time and just couldn't enjoy the experience because I knew I was missing out by not watching it on a display that could do it justice. On an OLED, it was like watching a pristine print while on the LED it was like watching washed-out video.

I said something similar years ago when people were complaining about a distracting "blanket tint" on some Blu-ray. On all the calibrated displays at my office, the Blu-ray looked fine yet when I viewed it on a consumer-grade LED, I noticed what people were complaining about, but the issue was that the disc wasn't being viewed on a display that could do it justice, rather than it being an issue with the disc.

Bolded the OLED comment. 100% true. Most of my blu-rays look fantastic on my OLED. Better than ever. You are correct that the display and its setup have a lot to do with how good anything looks - from DVDs to UHDs.

Most low-to middle tier LCDs just dont cut it. They have terrible contrast which makes them unsutiable for good HDR performance. Heck, it makes them bad for any performance, really. The crappy blacks - or shall we call them purples/greys, make the overall image lack depth & "punch". They look washed out and very flat.

[ROSS.T.G.]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

Nope, sorry. That comment could be taken seriously, as well, and combined with your lack of protest or explanation at my comparison of your argument, I missed the sarcasm. It did surprise me because I know you're smarter than that.

I guess I've posted enough sarcasm that I expect people to pick up on it. I didn't protest your comparison because I've read enough of your posts on the topic that I didn't think it would matter really. That's not me calling you stubborn and it's not because I didn't know how to back up my opinion either. I felt my first comment was valid (it still is). You know the one where you called me Ted Turner If I came back with a rebuttal you probably would have called me George Lucas or something which is why I responded the way I did. Unlike some others you don't spit nonsense and you make valid points and obviously know what you're talking about even though I don't personally feel the same way you do on this particular topic. I don't think we should hold catalogue titles back with SDR. Blu-ray SDR does not look like film to my eyes. It never has, it looks like video. You want to honor catalogue titles by replicating how they were shown theatrically, I wish to honour them by gushing over them with the best possibly tech on my OLED with HDR. If I want that cinema look I'll turn my OLED light down and decrease sharpness.

[Harryhausen AF]

BDs should not look washed out on any tv! They should be made to look their best on LED, LCD, OLED you name it. If it looks good on OLED and not LED then that is not right and not fair to customers who have LEDs. Stuff like software is made to work at its best on different systems so why cant SDR look as good on LED as OLED?

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Harryhausen AF

BDs should not look washed out on any tv! They should be made to look their best on LED, LCD, OLED you name it. If it looks good on OLED and not LED then that is not right and not fair to customers who have LEDs. Stuff like software is made to work at its best on different systems so why cant SDR look as good on LED as OLED?

LCD/LEDs don't have anywhere near the infinite contrast of an OLED. Therefore, some lower APL scenes can look washed out on an LED especially one where its contrast isn't the best even for its own tech.

[JohnCarpenterFan]

If people really want the discs they buy to look their best enough then they will spend the money to get a high-end display capable of showing them properly.

Not the fault of the companies that release physical media, that it looks sub-par on sub-par displays. Blame the TV manufacturers who make these crappy mid-to-low-level TVs that just seem to get worse and worse.

If you really want all your discs to look their best, then save up for a high quality OLED or projector. Hell, I've tested plenty of mid-level TVs and honestly SDR on an OLED mostly looks better than HDR on a mid-level 4K LED.

[Harryhausen AF]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

LCD/LEDs don't have anywhere near the infinite contrast of an OLED. Therefore, some lower APL scenes can look washed out on an LED especially one where its contrast isn't the best even for its own tech.

How can they look good with HDR but not SDR then if it isnt the blu-rays fault

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Harryhausen AF

How can they look good with HDR but not SDR then if it isnt the blu-rays fault

If panel has crappy blacks, it doesn't matter if it's HDR or SDR. What looks good to some looks poor to others. Some people are fine with a 2,000:1 native contrast where as others like myself wouldn't stomach it. However, a bright APL scene it may not matter as much there.

[Harryhausen AF]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

If panel has crappy blacks, it doesn't matter if it's HDR or SDR. What looks good to some looks poor to others. Some people are fine with a 2,000:1 native contrast where as others like myself wouldn't stomach it. However, a bright APL scene it may not matter as much there.

But how is it possible that I get better blacks in HDR than SDR if the panel has crappy blacks as you said.

[LoSouL]

Yeah, blu rays look even better on any 4K TV. Maybe if you're not getting enough gains in HDR, you won't see that much of a difference in depth and contouring between BD and UHD, though.

[oddbox83]

With my Oppo doing the upscaling, well mastered Blu-rays look stunning. 4K discs are just that bit better.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by JohnCarpenterFan

Blu-rays can still look amazing on high-end displays/projectors. Usually, the problem is with the display rather than the disc itself. I've never seen anybody with an OLED complain about how flat Blu-rays look unless the disc was poorly mastered to begin with.

Reminds me of a while back, I had to make do with a calibrated LED for home viewing and while some discs looked great, I noticed plenty of ones which I knew looked amazing on high-end displays, appeared flat and washed out on the LED.

I think the issue is likely due to TV limitations, especially in regard to SDR settings. I remember trying to watch some remastered Warner Blu-rays on the LED I had at the time and just couldn't enjoy the experience because I knew I was missing out by not watching it on a display that could do it justice. On an OLED, it was like watching a pristine print while on the LED it was like watching washed-out video.

I said something similar years ago when people were complaining about a distracting "blanket tint" on some Blu-ray. On all the calibrated displays at my office, the Blu-ray looked fine yet when I viewed it on a consumer-grade LED, I noticed what people were complaining about, but the issue was that the disc wasn't being viewed on a display that could do it justice, rather than it being an issue with the disc.

And was that consumer-grade LCD calibrated as well? I didn't complain about how flat Blu-rays looked before I got into UHD, that's for damned sure. I lapped it up like everybody else, I gave stuff like San Andreas 9/10 for video quality at the place where I used to review but holy shit, the UHD smokes it. And I only know that now having been immersed in HDR goodness for the last couple of years. Now San Andreas' BD looks flat, dull and just plain ugly in comparison, with blacks that lose a huge amount of shadow detail, and when I see most SDR 709 trim passes derived from a wide gamut DI I get the same kinds of feelings: one-note colour, badly clipped highlights and fuzzier grain too.

It may well be that OLED's natural advantages for SDR playback in terms of retaining better colour volume at lower nit levels are what makes SDR look so fulsome, as well as dat infinite contrast of course, but it could also be that its natural disadvantages in displaying higher-nit content (in terms of consumer-grade gear) are what's narrowing that gap to SDR performance in the areas where HDR should be streaking ahead, not limping alongside.

[wxman2003]

Using my 103D with my LG E6, the darbee effect makes many BD look just as good as their UHD counterpart on my 203 when it comes to detail. Sometimes better. Color and specular highlights are a different story.

[Geoff D]

And that in itself is part of the conundrum, Darbees aside. I bet there are plenty of OLED owners on here who would say that although SDR looks great HDR looks even greaterer, while others chime in with "I can hardly see a difference!".

[newtonp01]

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and throw my hat into the "BD's look flat on my OLED" camp. HDR on the OLED smokes any BD.

[ROSS.T.G.]

I sold my Darbee with my projector last year. Excellent device for 1080p projectors. I couldn’t imagine hooking one up to my OLED though.

[wxman2003]

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

I sold my Darbee with my projector last year. Excellent device for 1080p projectors. I couldn’t imagine hooking one up to my OLED though.

It does actually make BD look better on OLED. In fact, it has a bigger effect than it did on my Pioneer plasma. I also have another Darbee device between my DTV box and tv.

[ROSS.T.G.]

Originally Posted by wxman2003

It does actually make BD look better on OLED. In fact, it has a bigger effect than it did on my Pioneer plasma. I also have another Darbee device between my DTV box and tv.

Yeah I just find my OLED has just the right amount of sharpness as is. It’s right in that sweet spot, razor sharp but with no ringing. I’m sensitive when it comes to sharpness though. My last 2 4K LED’s looked over sharpened even at 0, my last 2 projectors needed it. Different strokes and all.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Harryhausen AF

But how is it possible that I get better blacks in HDR than SDR if the panel has crappy blacks as you said.

Sounds like a calibration issue or simply a perception thing.

Actually many (most?) UHD BDs are encoded at a higher black level than BD.

[wxman2003]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Sounds like a calibration issue or simply a perception thing.

Actually many (most?) UHD BDs are encoded at a higher black level than BD.

I noticed the same. Using the Masciola HDR10 calibration disc, I have to raise my brightness to 52 on my OLED for HDR10, which makes many of the dark scenes show elevated blacks, but the black bars remain perfectly black on my OLED .