HDR is crayons

[Noremac Mij]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I'm not saying TVs won't improve the next 5 years or whatever. I'm saying I don't know what they could reasonably add that would incentivize a purchase for me. If you have an excellent HDR 10 set then you're pretty much good to go for this format, and I don't do much else with my TV other than watch Youtube. I don't use any processing modes, so improvements to those are meaningless to me.

Now that they're better with HDR 10 I might get an OLED for the contrast, as I said, but beyond that I don't see much a TV could do to get me to spend thousands during this format's run.

That’s just it, you don’t know.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

Love to know where whomever pulled that 9% burn-in figure came up with that number? Got empirical, factual data? I hope they didnt use a few forum posts to deduce that percentage. Either way, 67.8% of statistics are made up anyways . Seriously though - almost 10% permanent burn-in? Really? Im calling insane BS on that. Someone forgot to carry a 0 or something. Its probably more like .009%. But whatever.

I am always suspicious of statistics when they are presented without a citation to support them. As Mark Twain, and others, famously said: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Page 40 of this thread is where I last saw anyone make this claim about 9% of OLED TVs having burn-in issues.

I mostly just watch my discs on my TV; I do not subscribe to cable TV and I game almost exclusively on my pc. I get my news online.

In 2021, The LG 6 series will turn 5 years-old, I think, and if those owners are still happy with their TVs, I will be more confident in OLED's durability. By then we should also know how micro LED is doing.

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I am always suspicious of statistics when they are presented without a citation to support them. As Mark Twain, and others, famously said: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Page 40 of this thread is where I last saw anyone make this claim about 9% of OLED TVs having burn-in issues.

I mostly just watch my discs on my TV; I do not subscribe to cable TV and I game almost exclusively on my pc. I get my news online.

In 2021, The LG 6 series will turn 5 years-old, I think, and if those owners are still happy with their TVs, I will be more confident in OLED's durability. By then we should also know how micro LED is doing.

Excellent - well said and it makes sense. Hell, for all I know, my set could end up burn-in someday and then I'll be the one hanging my head in shame! But, I doubt it. That 9% is 100%() pulled out of someones butt-opening. May as well just have said 17.5%. Or 22.8%. Just making stuff up at that point.

My set has 2500 hours on it and its the 2016 model E6. Still wonderful. No issues. but years from now..... we shall see, right?

[fighthefutureofhd]

Originally Posted by Vilya

This aptly summarizes my fear with OLED TVs. I do not want to worry about how my viewing habits could adversely affect my TV. If 9% of OLED TV owners really do suffer permanent burn-in issues, as was previously posted in this thread, that risk is higher than I am comfortable with.

I have read that OLEDs become dimmer as they age and that they do not resolve motion as well as other technologies. I happen to keep my TVs far longer than 3-5 years and I am concerned about how well this OLED technology will fare once it ages a few years. I guess we will have to wait until the LG 6 series turns 5 years-old to get any idea as to how well this OLED tech will truly hold up.

I am also anxious to see what becomes of the emerging micro LED technology that claims to have all of the benefits of both OLED and LED technology with none, or few, of the drawbacks of either.

OLEDs sure look gorgeous and they are as tempting as the Siren's song, but I don't want my hopes, and my wallet, to be dashed against the rocks when the musics over.

Tell me about it. Every time I keep seeing rand or band and I just want to cry.

Originally Posted by Noremac Mij

Not crayons. HDR is suppositories.

So that's why I've been having to a go lot and have green poo.

[wxman2003]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I have read that OLEDs become dimmer as they age and that they do not resolve motion as well as other technologies. I happen to keep my TVs far longer than 3-5 years and I am concerned about how well this OLED technology will fare once it ages a few years. I guess we will have to wait until the LG 6 series turns 5 years-old to get any idea as to how well this OLED tech will truly hold up.

My EF9500 is now 3 years old and still looks really good. I have not noticed that it's dimmer than my E6. The 9500 has twice as many hours, and since ABL on both tv's kicks in around 150 nits on 100% white slides, it's easy to compare and does not look dimmer. Also I do not see any uneven aging of color when displaying the 100% color slides. They still all look uniform.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by wxman2003

My EF9500 is now 3 years old and still looks really good. I have not noticed that it's dimmer than my E6. The 9500 has twice as many hours, and since ABL on both tv's kicks in around 150 nits on 100% white slides, it's easy to compare and does not look dimmer. Also I do not see any uneven aging of color when displaying the 100% color slides. They still all look uniform.

That's good news; it is encouraging to hear positive experiences from those who have owned OLED tech the longest.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by Noremac Mij

Technology is moving so fast and it’s getting faster exponentially. At this point, it’s not easy to even predict what we’ll have in five years, but there will definitely be a genuine need to upgrade.

Science in general is moving at such an exponential rate, that in near future it will separate from our comprehension. It will become so fantastical and purely magic that we will no longer have the intellectual capacity to understand it and follow it. At that point it will be game over for the human race and possibly for the entire Universe. This is coming sooner than most of us think.

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Maybe 2000 nit consumer OLEDs in a 3-5 years.

I would hope gamut is increased too, at least adding the current Adobe1998 gamut green that's been on photography monitors for a few years now (and in the Pro Sony OLED), and most important, either 16-bit or 24-bit processing/panels so all the potential of 10-bit and 12-bit PQ/DV is realized. (Right now 10-bit panels might be more like 7-8 bit PQ performance. Shades of those early Phillips "16-bit" CD players )

Checking a EOTF diagram of OLEDs I could find, you need an increase of 1.333x current or 1.155x voltage to do 1000 nits, but I don't think the yellow Energy Saver stickers lets you do that

[Geoff D]

Penton just posted this in the HDR discussion thread, apparently Sony are looking to phase out their BVM-X300 OLED mastering monitors for a - *gulp* - LCD version BVM-HX310 owing to the burn-in and other aging issues that they get from driving those OLEDs so brightly all day every day.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Word is Sony will eventually stop producing the BVM-X300s

[Show spoiler]

and replace with these…..https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/09/...itor-ibc-2018/ .

The change in display type should mitigate previous problems with burn-in and premature aging -> dimming.

I'm assuming it's using two LCD panels sandwiched together to achieve the quoted 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Noremac Mij

HDR is not just about those nits.

Not all of it, but important none the less which is why MORE nits would be better for OLED (and any other displays too). It would not be superfluous as you claim. Let's see how much better highlights resolve on an 800 nit OLED does vs an eventual 2000 nit OLED.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

Yo- wrong thread, bro.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

I would hope gamut is increased too, at least adding the current Adobe1998 gamut green that's been on photography monitors for a few years now (and in the Pro Sony OLED), and most important, either 16-bit or 24-bit processing/panels so all the potential of 10-bit and 12-bit PQ/DV is realized. (Right now 10-bit panels might be more like 7-8 bit PQ performance. Shades of those early Phillips "16-bit" CD players )

Good job Sony's higher-end sets have 14-bit processing then to actually deliver true 10-bit performance, which is another thing that's been holding back the precision of certain displays and display types. You can have all the near-black shades you want but if the processing's bit depth is choking on it, well....

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Penton just posted this in the HDR discussion thread, apparently Sony are looking to phase out their BVM-X300 OLED mastering monitors for a - *gulp* - LCD version BVM-HX310 owing to the burn-in and other aging issues that they get from driving those OLEDs so brightly all day every day.

I'm assuming it's using two LCD panels sandwiched together to achieve the quoted 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio.

Yes that should be. Nice.
Which makes panels match err...matchier
paneldeathmatch2-dieharder.jpg

[mzupeman]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I am always suspicious of statistics when they are presented without a citation to support them. As Mark Twain, and others, famously said: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Page 40 of this thread is where I last saw anyone make this claim about 9% of OLED TVs having burn-in issues.

I mostly just watch my discs on my TV; I do not subscribe to cable TV and I game almost exclusively on my pc. I get my news online.

In 2021, The LG 6 series will turn 5 years-old, I think, and if those owners are still happy with their TVs, I will be more confident in OLED's durability. By then we should also know how micro LED is doing.

I am also suspicious but I certainly wouldn't sneeze at 9 percent as a number. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being a tad higher. I'd imagine that there are plenty of people out there buying OLED's because they hear they're the best and have the money to throw around, but aren't very knowledgeable of the technology outside of that. That means they're probably torturing their televisions with news and sports and over time, they're most certainly going to get burn-in. They may not even notice it much during regular usage... at least not for a long while. Most of the casual consumers picking these up likely aren't taking measures to protect their investment.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Good job Sony's higher-end sets have 14-bit processing then to actually deliver true 10-bit performance, which is another thing that's been holding back the precision of certain displays and display types. You can have all the near-black shades you want but if the processing's bit depth is choking on it, well....

Yes.

According to my little table, and the way Charles Poynton calculated linear,

12bit 10k PQ = 13bit log = 15bit gamma = 24.3bit linear
10bit 10k PQ = 11bit log = 13bit gamma = 21bit linear. If you discard the top, 2000 nits 18bits linear, 1000 nits 17bits linear.

Now, the DAC stage, so the electrical signal drives the panel, is it linear or there is some kind of stage that massages the signal to fit the EOTF curves of the LCD/OLED/DLP, saving bits?

In a CRT the video signal, as it was inverse gamma encoded, went -> DAC straight to the gamma curve of the tube, and the tube painted the picture, so no digital values transposing (and truncating) from one curve to another.

theetofofstuff.jpg

A LCD curve is different to CRT gamma; an OLED seems more similar in shape to a CRT in that composite, but with a higher slope (or "gamma"), which from this seems something like around a gamma of "3.2", which probably is a better fit for PQ as PQ has a much higher slope than γ2.4. But since none of these EOTF curves are shaped like the inverted S of the PQ one, somewhere between the video digital codes and the panel physical response, the digital values of the source levels and/or the shape of the electrical signal have to be recalculated/manipulated, and if in the digital domain you need the extra bits to not truncate the perceptual coding advantage of PQ, unless you had a panel whose EOTF mimicked PQ directly.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by mzupeman

I am also suspicious but I certainly wouldn't sneeze at 9 percent as a number. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being a tad higher. I'd imagine that there are plenty of people out there buying OLED's because they hear they're the best and have the money to throw around, but aren't very knowledgeable of the technology outside of that. That means they're probably torturing their televisions with news and sports and over time, they're most certainly going to get burn-in. They may not even notice it much during regular usage... at least not for a long while. Most of the casual consumers picking these up likely aren't taking measures to protect their investment.

I have no way of knowing how many OLED owners have actually experienced burn-in issues, but it just seems that if 9% did, yet alone more, that there would be a very audible outcry against these TVS. Maybe there is, but I just haven't heard it? It is still a cause for concern simply because I do not really know how many people are affected. I do not want to feel like I have to be vigilant about how I use my TV. I don't need something new to worry about.

I doubt that it would even occur to the "casual consumer" that there was any need to protect their TVs from, well, viewing their TV. They likely never had to worry before, nor should they; they just watched what they wanted with no thought that they could be hurting their set in the process. I don't think it would even occur to them that they had to be so careful.

People expect plug and play, not plug and pray.

[mzupeman]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I have no way of knowing how many OLED owners have actually experienced burn-in issues, but it just seems that if 9% did, yet alone more, that there would be a very audible outcry against these TVS. Maybe there is, but I just haven't heard it? It is still a cause for concern simply because I do not really know how people many are affected. I do not want to feel like I have to be vigilant about how I use my TV. I don't need something new to worry about.

I doubt that it would even occur to the "casual consumer" that there was any need to protect their TVs from, well, viewing their TV. They likely never had to worry before, nor should they; they just watched what they wanted with no thought that they could be hurting their set in the process. I don't think it would even occur to them that they had to be so careful.

People expect plug and play, not plug and pray.

Also a good point.

[Nothing371]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I am always suspicious of statistics when they are presented without a citation to support them. As Mark Twain, and others, famously said: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Page 40 of this thread is where I last saw anyone make this claim about 9% of OLED TVs having burn-in issues.

I mostly just watch my discs on my TV; I do not subscribe to cable TV and I game almost exclusively on my pc. I get my news online.

In 2021, The LG 6 series will turn 5 years-old, I think, and if those owners are still happy with their TVs, I will be more confident in OLED's durability. By then we should also know how micro LED is doing.

There was a poll thread on AVS forum where 9% of users reported at least some minor form of burn-in that was beyond image retention issues. I don't have a link for it, sorry. It's the generally agreed upon rate in another discussion forum that I frequent. I'm sure it's just like Amazon reviews or anywhere else where people are twice as likely to post a review when they have bad experiences. Take it however way you want. Pretend it's only half of that. I don't care. The reasoning still remains the same for me and for similarly minded people : that is, we don't gamble on expensive new television purchases with our money. Not any more than need be, anyways. Especially considering my viewing habits. We call it the "panel lottery" for a reason.

I'd be the first to argue that electronics I (might) purchase have a roughly 10% chance of failing straight out of the box. That's before even addressing possible OLED issues.

[Vilya]

OLED's burn-in problem might be worse than LG cares to admit and it appears that their market share is dropping, too.

Forum member FletchNZ posted this new article today; his thread on the subject is the second link:

Is OLED slowly burning down? October 26, 2018:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/is-ole...-burning-down/

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...12&postcount=1

"things get interesting if you're just looking at the premium sector. Last year for TVs that cost over $2,500, Samsung had a 34.3 percent market share, Sony had 33.3 percent, and LG 30.3 percent. But this year as of August, Samsung controlled 43.6 percent, while Sony had 32.9 percent and LG 22.9 percent. LG's market share is headed in the wrong direction. "

" This difference is even wider in TVs over 75 inches, the crème de la crème of TVs where manufacturers today secure their much-needed high margins. Last year, Samsung controlled 50 percent, while Sony had 35.6 percent and LG 8.4 percent.

As of August, Samsung had 57 percent, while Sony had 25 percent and LG 9 percent."

[trekky76]

Originally Posted by Vilya

OLED's burn-in problem might be worse than LG cares to admit and it appears that their market share is dropping, too.

Market share has nothing to do with that. Samsung has just been better at marketing their OLED wannabie QLED. Alot of garbage displays are now claiming to do near perfect blacks and are priced lower than OLED displays. Consumers tend to favor cheap over quality.

[nick4Knight]

I'm getting the Panny UB820 as well. It's just a pity that the UHD remux playback is not a full solution. Means I'll have a need to get a Shield etc, which will deliver good streaming playback though as benefit. IDK if you can call that a loss-win-win.