HDR is crayons

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Colson

Geoff, what would be your selection if you were going to buy a TV today? Would it still be the ZD9/Z9D?

I still think it's one of the very best HDR TVs you can buy, Stacey Spears picked one up to do his client monitoring on (not actual grading as no professional would use a consumer display of any make or model for that) because it has true 10-bit processing and that's no small praise coming from him. Maybe he's changed it out for an OLED since and the ZD9 is certainly not the best all-round TV ever but the ZD9 remains singularly impressive to my eyes in the world of HDR.

If I had to buy another TV right now I'd likely look at the 75" ZD9 for its improved panel response time over the 65". I would give serious consideration to the AF9 OLED however as its 'always on' dynamic tone mapping for HDR10 seems to work extremely well (according to Vincent Teoh, oops, sorry mike) and renders concerns moot about mapping-related issues like highlight retention, low APL and so on. It's a shame then that Dolby Vision appears to be broken on the AF9, looking far dimmer than it ought to which is really weird.

And yes, image retention is still plaguing my thoughts about OLED. People can say with a straight face that they've had no issues and I believe them (mostly), but people aren't me. I simply don't watch TV on my display, I don't game on it either, it's all about movies and what I don't want is for the boundary of the letterbox bars to end up etched on the screen. Might sound like a very specific thing to worry about but that's exactly what happened on my Pioneer plasma - despite it being treated like royalty, plus loads of other users saying they never had a problem - and the funny thing is, Penton mentioned in another thread having seen a Sony BVM-X300 OLED monitor in a grading suite with the boundary of the side borders from 3840x2160 content retained on the 4096x2160 screen. And that's no surprise, seeing as they were mastering 16:9 content on a 17:9 screen in high brightness (it's HDR, duh) for several hours a day, but I don't want my viewing habits dictated by the TV tech.

[fighthefutureofhd]

Amen!!!!

[ROSS.T.G.]

It was between my OLED and the Z9 last spring when I returned my LED. I didn't want to settle anymore. I calibrated a few friends OLED's for SDR and liked them but I didn't spend enough time watching. I got an insane deal for my 65". I paid $1,800. Regular price on my model in Canada is $3,500. I couldn't say no and live with myself. I think people are sensitive to certain characteristics of types of displays. Blooming and black levels and clipping are thorns in my side so it wasn't an easy decision. I knew there would be trade offs. LG'S Dynamic Contrast works extremely well. So much so that my fav discs are not in DV. If I didn't have a dedicated room for movies and gaming I probably would have opted for another LED and would have been very happy with it but for me personally nothing compares to the infinite contrast of what I have now. It's that good to my eyes But I'm sure people with high nit LED's are saying the same thing and good for them. As long as someone is happy with what they have that's all that matters really.

I was also terrified of burn in but having played many hours and watching tons of news it's not an issue on mine.

[oddbox83]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And yes, image retention is still plaguing my thoughts about OLED. People can say with a straight face that they've had no issues and I believe them (mostly), but people aren't me. I simply don't watch TV on my display, I don't game on it either, it's all about movies and what I don't want is for the boundary of the letterbox bars to end up etched on the screen. Might sound like a very specific thing to worry about but that's exactly what happened on my Pioneer plasma - despite it being treated like royalty, plus loads of other users saying they never had a problem - and the funny thing is, Penton mentioned in another thread having seen a Sony BVM-X300 OLED monitor in a grading suite with the boundary of the side borders from 3840x2160 content retained on the 4096x2160 screen. And that's no surprise, seeing as they were mastering 16:9 content on a 17:9 screen in high brightness (it's HDR, duh) for several hours a day, but I don't want my viewing habits dictated by the TV tech.

This plus I watch an awful lot of 4:3 content with bright old studio video images. So this would be a big worry for me. OLEDs look best for dark movies, end of, but even though I had been convinced my next TV would be an LG OLED I've waited before taking the plunge and now the Samsung QLEDs would seem to be the overall winner for me but damn they are even more expensive than the C8s. I have read they have poor off-angle viewing, but since I watch dead-on this isn't an issue for me. Poor local dimming is also a bug-bear (I hate this on my current LG edge-lit LED but put up with it for now) but FALD is certainly good enough for me in my opinion when you can balance that compromise with brighter highlights.

So my mind might change again, but right now I don't think I'll be upgrading to OLED.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But if a TV is killing the APL as part of its tone mapping or is diluting the blacks or is clipping the highlights, then Houston we have a problem and that's why I can be such a dismissive asshat about what people are seeing on their TV. There are so many variables that might be affecting so many aspects of the HDR imagery.

I've probably mentioned it, but I get to the point where I think far too many displays are advertised as featuring HDR when they're going to give the consumer a bad experience, they're great TVs for SDR and bright rooms, but I think only TVs that would be considered Premium Certified, that is they pass the resolution, color depth, color gamut, HDR, and minimum brightness and contrast ratio requirements to present the content adequately should be advertised as such.

So I sympathize with people who would like to see a UHD SDR grade included as part of the mix, some have spent thousands on sets that can't tone map well enough to provide even a passable experience.

In a few years it probably won't matter, we'll get more affordable 1,000-4,000 nit sets, but for some their confidence and interest in the format will have lapsed.

[nick4Knight]

That time old snide conflating thing. Yeah. Like our set is "HDR-capable" or something vague like "Features HDR"... as in yeah the set can technically transmit the data coming in, because duh they need to for compliance; but for sure not enough diligence was done to make sure the 'premium' tag was the only way of letting the consumer understand you are actually displaying HDR to an accuracy of whatever minimum %, in regards to tone mapping especially. You can meet all the specs of premium certification but each disc is a different beast able to throw the spanner into the whole accuracy works you have on paper.

[Show spoiler]And the fact every manufacturer had it's own handling for what does the mapping and how, if at all, or how aggressive or not. Yeesh. For that reason I'm glad I am late to the party so jumping in I'll be hitting the ground with the understanding and lay of all that land (combinations that work) sorted...

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by nick4Knight

...so jumping in I'll be hitting the ground with the understanding and lay of all that land (combinations that work) sort of...

Corrected ^...

Baby you've got the sort of hands to rip me apart
And baby you've got the sort of face to start this old heart
But your eyes are warning me this early morning
That my love's too big for you, my love

Baby you've got the sort of laugh that waters me
And makes me grow tall and strong and proud and flattens me
I find you stunning, but you are running me down
My love's too big for you, my love
My love's too big for you, my love

And if I was stronger then I would tell you no
And if I was stronger then I will leave this show
And if I was stronger then I would up and go
But here I am and here we go again...

[Noremac Mij]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I still think it's one of the very best HDR TVs you can buy, Stacey Spears picked one up to do his client monitoring on (not actual grading as no professional would use a consumer display of any make or model for that) because it has true 10-bit processing and that's no small praise coming from him. Maybe he's changed it out for an OLED since and the ZD9 is certainly not the best all-round TV ever but the ZD9 remains singularly impressive to my eyes in the world of HDR.

If I had to buy another TV right now I'd likely look at the 75" ZD9 for its improved panel response time over the 65". I would give serious consideration to the AF9 OLED however as its 'always on' dynamic tone mapping for HDR10 seems to work extremely well (according to Vincent Teoh, oops, sorry mike) and renders concerns moot about mapping-related issues like highlight retention, low APL and so on. It's a shame then that Dolby Vision appears to be broken on the AF9, looking far dimmer than it ought to which is really weird.

And yes, image retention is still plaguing my thoughts about OLED. People can say with a straight face that they've had no issues and I believe them (mostly), but people aren't me. I simply don't watch TV on my display, I don't game on it either, it's all about movies and what I don't want is for the boundary of the letterbox bars to end up etched on the screen. Might sound like a very specific thing to worry about but that's exactly what happened on my Pioneer plasma - despite it being treated like royalty, plus loads of other users saying they never had a problem - and the funny thing is, Penton mentioned in another thread having seen a Sony BVM-X300 OLED monitor in a grading suite with the boundary of the side borders from 3840x2160 content retained on the 4096x2160 screen. And that's no surprise, seeing as they were mastering 16:9 content on a 17:9 screen in high brightness (it's HDR, duh) for several hours a day, but I don't want my viewing habits dictated by the TV tech.

Get the A9F mi compadre and worry not about some boundary being etched out. Nobody keeps these TVs for more than 3-5 years anyway. Had a few hours to play with the A9F and it’s on par with the C8. Have some time behind a Z9F as well, it’s not as good as the Z9D and anyone considering it over 2018 OLEDs must be getting it for free.

[ROSS.T.G.]

Nobody keeps TVs longer than 3 years? Yeah ok...

[Noremac Mij]

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

Nobody keeps TVs longer than 3 years? Yeah ok...

Surely not Geoff, nor most serious videophiles. Technology moves too fast. My grandma on the other hand is another story.

[ROSS.T.G.]

Originally Posted by Noremac Mij

Surely not Geoff, nor most serious videophiles. Technology moves too fast. My grandma on the other hand is another story.

I myself go through a lot. 7 or 8 in the last 10 years but that’s not normal. Most, even videophiles will keep their displays for years.

[Fendergopher]

Originally Posted by Noremac Mij

Surely not Geoff, nor most serious videophiles. Technology moves too fast. My grandma on the other hand is another story.

I don't think you can speak for anyone other than yourself, m8.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

I myself go through a lot. 7 or 8 in the last 10 years but that’s not normal. Most, even videophiles will keep their displays for years.

That sounds awesome (but stressful), my Mum does the same with couches. She can go through (not through wear, she just likes to change things around) three a year if she's trying!

[ROSS.T.G.]

Originally Posted by chip75

That sounds awesome (but stressful), my Mum does the same with couches. She can go through (not through wear, she just likes to change things around) three a year if she's trying!

Yeah I definitely have settled now. No desire to change. Very happy with the OLED.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Noremac Mij

Surely not Geoff, nor most serious videophiles. Technology moves too fast. My grandma on the other hand is another story.

Honestly if you can do HDR 10 really well and have the infinite contrast of an OLED then I'm not sure what you'd upgrade for. Technology does movie fast, but how often does it add something you genuinely need?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by nick4Knight

That time old snide conflating thing. Yeah. Like our set is "HDR-capable" or something vague like "Features HDR"... as in yeah the set can technically transmit the data coming in, because duh they need to for compliance; but for sure not enough diligence was done to make sure the 'premium' tag was the only way of letting the consumer understand you are actually displaying HDR to an accuracy of whatever minimum %, in regards to tone mapping especially. You can meet all the specs of premium certification but each disc is a different beast able to throw the spanner into the whole accuracy works you have on paper.

[Show spoiler]And the fact every manufacturer had it's own handling for what does the mapping and how, if at all, or how aggressive or not. Yeesh. For that reason I'm glad I am late to the party so jumping in I'll be hitting the ground with the understanding and lay of all that land (combinations that work) sorted...

You've hit the nail on the head re: this whole certification sham. I may go on about tech specs until I'm blue in the face because they do still make a difference, but when it comes to HDR the question of good tone mapping is the absolute number 1 consideration that should've been part of that assessment scheme, not simply whether a set can hit x nits or y amount of gamut.

As for the number of TV's I've had, I've owned 10 in the last 20 years (1 CRT, 3 plasmas, 6 LCDs inc a Philips 21:9) so on average then, yeah, that's a change every two years. Coming up on two years for the ZD9 next May

[Noremac Mij]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Honestly if you can do HDR 10 really well and have the infinite contrast of an OLED then I'm not sure what you'd upgrade for. Technology does movie fast, but how often does it add something you genuinely need?

Technology is moving so fast and it’s getting faster exponentially. At this point, it’s not easy to even predict what we’ll have in five years, but there will definitely be a genuine need to upgrade.

Science in general is moving at such an exponential rate, that in near future it will separate from our comprehension. It will become so fantastical and purely magic that we will no longer have the intellectual capacity to understand it and follow it. At that point it will be game over for the human race and possibly for the entire Universe. This is coming sooner than most of us think.

[Himmel]

Sooo. Is HDR Really Crayons???

[Noremac Mij]

Originally Posted by Himmel

Sooo. Is HDR Really Crayons???

Not crayons. HDR is suppositories.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Noremac Mij

Technology is moving so fast and it’s getting faster exponentially. At this point, it’s not easy to even predict what we’ll have in five years, but there will definitely be a genuine need to upgrade.

Maybe 2000 nit consumer OLEDs in a 3-5 years.